Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

The sin nature is a genetic, biological, defect. A defect that was passed down seminally by Adam to all of us.
Its through the man's seed that the sin nature is passed down.

Now I can understand this in a poetic way...but the Bible isn't poetic about this. Adam disobeyed God and fell. He didn't fall physically. He fell spiritually. Because of him all of creation ( not just man ) came under the curse of sin and therefore death.

Adam was our ( Christians ) federal head. God had placed His creation under Adam's dominion. All under Adam must die.

Through repentance and faith in Jesus we share in His ( Jesus's ) death and resurrection. We, spiritually, pass from death into life. In so doing we die to Adam and are placed under the headship of Christ.

This physical body of mine will one day die or be translated because it still carries the curse and cannot inherit immortality. It is not, in and of itself, "bad". It is cursed by God through Adam. It will die in weakness and sin but be raised in the power and righteousness of Christ.

This is all very pedantic but you seem to be wandering down a different road.

 

[civic]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

Lets add some Scripture references to your OP.

1)Man by nature is deceitful (Jeremiah 17:9)

2)Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)

3)Man loves darkness (John 3:19)

4)Man does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12)

5)Man is ungodly (Romans 5:6)

6)Man is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1)

7)Man by nature is a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3)

8)Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Corinthians 2:14)

9)Man is a slave of sin (Romans 6:16-20)

10)Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalms 51:5)

11)Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous (Isaiah 64:6)

12)Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law (Romans 8:7)

13)Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act (Romans 3:12)

14)Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin (Romans 14:23)

15)Man has not one single thing that is good in him (Romans 7:18)

16)Man is born condemned (John 3:18)

 

[GeneZ]

Now I can understand this in a poetic way...but the Bible isn't poetic about this. Adam disobeyed God and fell. He didn't fall physically. He fell spiritually. Because of him all of creation ( not just man ) came under the curse of sin and therefore death.

Adam was our ( Christians ) federal head. God had placed His creation under Adam's dominion. All under Adam must die.

Through repentance and faith in Jesus we share in His ( Jesus's ) death and resurrection. We, spiritually, pass from death into life. In so doing we die to Adam and are placed under the headship of Christ.

This physical body of mine will one day die or be translated because it still carries the curse and cannot inherit immortality. It is not, in and of itself, "bad". It is cursed by God through Adam. It will die in weakness and sin but be raised in the power and righteousness of Christ.

This is all very pedantic but you seem to be wandering down a different road.

Adam was told in the Hebrew... "In dying you shall die."

Many translators tend to prefer.... "Surely die."

Why even say surely? If its so? Why not simply say.. "You shall die?"

Because it says... "in dying you shall die."

In dying you shall die indicates two deaths. First one is the spiritual death, which was instantaneous.
The second one was the result of the spiritual death... 'physical death' which came later on.

Jesus did not die physically to save us from sin. He died spiritually while our sins were piercing his body.
That is why the Father forsook Jesus while he was yet physically alive. Our sins cut Jesus off from the Father
for the endurance until having the last sin of mankind poured on him...

After the last sin was imputed to Jesus on the Cross?
No more sins to keep him cut off from the Father?

Jesus said "It is finished!" Said it while yet being physically alive!

There's more... But, I'll stop here for now.

 

[Eleanor]

Adam was told in the Hebrew... "In dying you shall die."

Many translators tend to prefer.... "Surely die."

Why even say surely? If its so? Why not simply say.. "You shall die?"

Because it says... "in dying you shall die."

In dying you shall die indicates two deaths. First one is the spiritual death, which was instantaneous.
The second one was the result of the spiritual death... 'physical death' which came later on.

Jesus did not die physically to save us from sin. He died spiritually while our sins were piercing his body.
That is why the Father forsook Jesus while he was yet physically alive. Our sins cut Jesus off from the Father
for the endurance until having the last sin of mankind poured on him...

After the last sin was imputed to Jesus on the Cross?
No more sins to keep him cut off from the Father?

Jesus said "It is finished!" Said it while yet being physically alive!

There's more... But, I'll stop here for now.

Interesting. . .

His life was the ransom (Mt 20:28), which was not paid until his death.

What was finished was the fulfillment of every Scripture relating to the Messiah (Jn 19:28); the last of them being of his thirst (Ps 22:15), and of vinegar to drink (Ps 69:21), as well as his suffering being finished. But the ransom was not paid until he died.

 

[GeneZ]

Interesting. . .

His life was the ransom (Mt 20:28), which was not paid until his death.

What was finished was the fulfillment of every Scripture relating to the Messiah (Jn 19:28); the last of them being of his thirst (Ps 22:15), and of vinegar to drink (Ps 69:21), as well as his suffering being finished. But the ransom was not paid until he died.

Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture ​

would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so ​

they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and ​

lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” ​

With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:28-30​

Read carefully, please... 'Finished' before he died physically!

The Greek says that it had been finished, and stands finished... and now is finished forever...

All was "finished" while he was yet physically alive!

Dead bodies can not speak out those words!

His spiritual death on the Cross while being forsaken saved us.
Then His physical death opened the door for our resurrection.
For we died with him, and are to now to be raised with him.

grace and peace!

 

[makesends]

Not true as I will prove with scripture.

Joel 2:28-32- The future promise of the Holy Spirit in them.

The Day of the Lord

28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.

The prophecy in Joel 2 was fulfilled in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers. Christ in you the hope of Glory which was a mystery hidden from the OT and revealed in the N.T. Colossians 1:26-27- the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Christ in you see Philippians 1:21, and also Galatians 2:20; see Romans 8:10; 2Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 4:19

Acts 2

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Jesus teaching on Pentecost. The Holy Spirit in them was future.

Acts 1

After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

John 14- still future

the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 still future- “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16- still future

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

John 17:26 still future-I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.”

How are these, if you suppose them to be new actions of the Holy Spirit, not filling, but indwelling?

 

[civic]

How are these, if you suppose them to be new actions of the Holy Spirit, not filling, but indwelling?

Not sure I’m following your question or objection to what I posted concerning Pentecost and Jesus promise to His disciples that is when the Holy Spirit He promised to send would occur on that day and they were to wait for that day upon His Ascension as He told them .

 

[makesends]

Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture ​

would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so ​

they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and ​

lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” ​

With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:28-30​

Read carefully, please... 'Finished' before he died physically!

The Greek says that it had been finished, and stands finished... and now is finished forever...

All was "finished" while he was yet physically alive!

Dead bodies can not speak out those words!

His spiritual death on the Cross while being forsaken saved us.
Then His physical death opened the door for our resurrection.
For we died with him, and are to now to be raised with him.

grace and peace!

Try to think of spiritual events as not time dependent. That Christ died in this temporal world is obvious, but "It is finished" can mean from the Foundation of the World. And it can even be his relief that the temporal ordeal was over with.

You can't anchor the redemption to a point in time, in order to reason around that point in time.

That's a lot like the reasoning that says, that since the Spirit came down at Pentecost, he was not present before Pentecost, when Scripture makes it obvious he WAS!

 

[Eleanor]

Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture ​

would be fulfilled, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so ​

they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and ​

lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” ​

With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." John 19:28-30​

Read carefully, please... 'Finished' before he died physically!

The Greek says that it had been finished, and stands finished... and now is finished forever...

All was "finished" while he was yet physically alive!

Dead bodies can not speak out those words!

His spiritual death on the Cross while being forsaken saved us.
Then His physical death opened the door for our resurrection.
For we died with him, and are to now to be raised with him.

grace and peace!

Mt 20:28 (must die as a ransom for sin, no ransom before/without the death) must reconcile with Jn 19:28 (finished).

Jn 19:28 is a statemet of having accomplished all the things he was to do in his ministry.
He then accomplished all things in prophecy.
And finally, with his last breath he accomplished the ransom; i.e., redemption.

 

[Eleanor]

Mt 20:28 (must die as a ransom for sin, no ransom before the death) must reconcile with Jn 19:28 (finished).

Jn 19:28 is a statemet of having accomplished all the things he was to do in his ministry.
He then accomplished all things in prophecy

Not true as I will prove with scripture.
Joel 2:28-32- The future promise of the Holy Spirit in them.
The Day of the Lord
28 “And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.

The prophecy in Joel 2 was fulfilled in Acts 2 when the Holy Spirit came to indwell believers. Christ in you the hope of Glory which was a mystery hidden from the OT and revealed in the N.T. Colossians 1:26-27- the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. 27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Christ in you see Philippians 1:21, and also Galatians 2:20; see Romans 8:10; 2Corinthians 13:5; Galatians 4:19

Acts 2

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: “Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:

17 “‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

22 “Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. 24 But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Jesus teaching on Pentecost. The Holy Spirit in them was future.

Are you setting personal interpretation of prophetic riddle (Nu 12:8) against Jn 20:22-23?

Acts 1
After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

Baptism with the Holy Spirit is not regeneration. It is a witness of, or a special empowering of the Holy Spirit to the already regenerated (Jn 20:22-23).

6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
John 14- still future
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20 On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

“All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 still future- “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

John 16- still future

“I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

John 17:26 still future-I have revealed you to them, and I will continue to do so. Then your love for me will be in them, and I will be in them.”

But not still future in Jn 20:22-23.
He authorized them to forgive sin, with no indwelling Holy Spirit?

The pouring out of the Holy Spirit on the apostles on Pentecost was a special empowering of the already regenerated apostles (Jn 20:22-23) to take the gospel to mankind.

 

[Eleanor]

Not sure what your point was in that.... But, for better clarification may I suggest?
But, not simply risen for Pentecost to take place.
He needed to first ascend back to heaven to be GLORIFIED.
The resurrected Jesus was not yet glorified. To be glorified?
He first needed to return to Heaven to be seated at the right hand of the Father.

Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”
By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to
that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." John 7:38-39
Pentecost could only take place only after Jesus had been glorified, not simply risen.

Yes, atonement had not yet been accomplished.

His glory was in the cross, its salvation, and the resurrection, as well as the ascension (Jn 13:31-32, 17:1, 5).
The apostles received the Holy Spirit in Jn 20:22-23 after his resurrection.

 

[GeneZ]

Try to think of spiritual events as not time dependent.

Try thinking of events as the Bible presents them to happen.

 

[GeneZ]

Mt 20:28 (must die as a ransom for sin, no ransom before/without the death) must reconcile with Jn 19:28 (finished).

Jn 19:28 is a statemet of having accomplished all the things he was to do in his ministry.
He then accomplished all things in prophecy.
And finally, with his last breath he accomplished the ransom; i.e., redemption.

Thanks for that.... Now I can not discuss anything more with you.

For by time you end up being refuted, everyone will have forgotten the truthful point that was just made.

I would rather leave my presentation stand as is. For those who can? They will get it.
So, why draw them away from what they can get?

I have observed this tactic for too long in forums to not see the attitude's desired goal.
Make them forget the truth they were just shown by dragging it out into one long boring unresolved diversion.

Movin on...

 

[GeneZ]

Yes, atonement had not yet been accomplished.

His glory was in the cross, its salvation, and the resurrection, as well as the ascension (Jn 13:31-32, 17:1, 5).
The apostles received the Holy Spirit in Jn 20:22-23 after his resurrection.

They received the Holy Spirit as the OT prophets did.

In contrast....

The Church (only after Jesus was glorified) has now become the Temple of the Holy Spirit.

For example.. David, being OT, prayed for the Lord not to remove His Spirit from him.
With us, being the New Creation? The Spirit promises He will never leave us nor forsake us.

That is why when some Christians choose to be knuckleheads and think in his emotions with head knowledge, the Spirit remains in him grieved, or quenched. OT saints had a different relationship with the Holy Spirit. Not the same thing as ours.

The apostles in John 20 were not yet a new creation in Christ. They still functioned as OT believers. They were still as Jews.


OT believers for the first time transformed into being the New Creation in Christ at Pentecost.

 

[GeneZ]

Try to think of spiritual events as not time dependent. That Christ died in this temporal world is obvious, but "It is finished" can mean from the Foundation of the World. And it can even be his relief that the temporal ordeal was over with.

You can only see it that way as long as you do not see the context in which the Lord's words were spoken.


"Later, knowing that everything had now been finished, and so that Scripture would be fulfilled,
Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the
sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus’ lips. When he had received the drink,
Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit."


grace and peace ..............

 

[Carbon]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

Id say. plus more.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

Okay.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

I'd think just the opposite. If man wasn't totally depraved it wouldn't be that much of an issue, all someone would have to do is say, "hey let me tell you about this Jesus) and since free will was thrown in, man would just have to make a simple decision.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Amen: I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Gal 2:20. Is't from being crucified in Christ that we are able to believe.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

Well in a sense they are for salvation. As scripture teaches.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

Sorry brother, I cannot find this teaching in scripture. If it is there, would you please point it out? Thanks.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

I'd be interested in seeing these teaching in scripture. I mean, you seem like a thinker and it's possible I just don't see these things and need someone to point it out in scripture. So if you will? Thanks bro

 

[Carbon]

The formulation of "total depravity" is not that man is totally corrupt. It is that all aspects of man are corrupted. In other words the "whole" of man is corrupted. Man is not as bad as he *could* be but there is no uncorrupted part of him.

Or to think of it another way...consider a perfect mirror. It reflects whatever stands in front of it perfectly. A perfect image.

Now smudge it with your thumb. The image is marred. No matter where you stand that smudge sticks out like a sore...well...thumb. It is a corrupted image. No longer perfect. Not as bad as if you had, say, spray painted the mirror black. But not perfect either.

A great way of explaining it. I like that.

 

[Carbon]

Hmmm… This is a thought-provoking topic.

When God created us in His own image, He called His creation good. He was pleased. So how did we get from “good” to “totally depraved“? Of course, we are all familiar with the account of Eve’s, then Adam’s, deception in the Garden. It’s man’s God-given ability to think and choose for himself that gets us all into trouble. James tells us exactly how it happens:

Yes, it was from the fall in the garden.

God draws us to Himself; Satan draws us away from our Creator. God tells us both the truth and the consequences; Satan only lies and deceives. We are in a hopeless situation being tugged back and forth between the two.

Actually, the devil is God's devil, they are not on equal grounds. If the devil pulls, it's because in divine providence, God is directing it. The devil may think he is getting somewhere, but he is delusional. There is no wrestling going on between God and the devil.

That hopeless situation is called total depravity—a murky pit where few truly want to be, for there is no Light there. Total depravity is a state of being, not the person himself.

Scripture?

Unlike His nemesis, however, God is faithful. His grace and mercy provide both rescue and rest In Christ; and in Him, we can escape the pit and live a life worthy of the calling we have received from our Father. We have help from the Holy Spirit to do so. Since we are urged to live worthy (Ephesians 4:1), we must be worth saving in God’s eyes. Total depravity does not equal worthless; total depravity = needful of salvation.

You need a lot of scripture to back this up.

 

[Carbon]

The New creation IN CHRIST takes place when the Holy Spirit enters the regenerated person's body to indwell.

Are you saying a regenerated person does not have the Spirit?

 

[Carbon]

The gospel was not preached before Pentecost.

Not preached as the apostles preached. But the gospel extends all the way back to the garden.