Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[donadams]

And Mary said:

“My soul glorifies the Lord
and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior."

Luke 1:46-47​

Mary calls the Lord her Savior!
Why?

She needed salvation!
Fallen people need salvation.
Fallen people get grace from the Lord!
If not? Only Jesus would have received grace!

The Lord was with Paul, too.
And, Paul called himself the chief sinner! 1 Timothy 1:15

Immaculate people would be sinless!
Not needing for a savior.

The Catholic church made it up!

Only one faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Christ not only saves us from our past sins by forgiveness but he also preserves us from future sin by his grace, in both cases he is savior, and Mary was preserved from original sin and from all sin to the glory of God and the praise of Jesus Christ! Lk 1:49

Since when does the Holy Ghost overshadow a sinner? Lk 1:35

Since when does the Holy Ghost conceive in a sinner? Matt 1:20

Since when does sinner bear the Holy savior? The Holy Son of God? Lk 1:35

A bad tree cannot bear good fruit

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

“I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.” Zwingli

Ex 25 anything consecrated to God’s service must be holy, pure, and consecrated only to God’s holy purpose:
Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

Gen 3:15
Lk 1:28
Lk 1:35
Lk 1:47
*Lk 1:49
Song of S. 1:2 & 2:1-2 & 4:1 & 4:7
Rev 12:1
Ex 25:8-13
Matt 5:8
Job 14:4
Ps 93:5
Sirach 24:22-28

 

[donadams]

The REAL MARY is Jesus' Mother. GOD HAS NO MOTHER. God is eternal. Yes I DO know the "Word Games you play to get "Mother of God".
The Orthodox are more realistic with their "Theotokos".

Lk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mary is not the mother of the divinity, or the mother of the eternal father, or the mother of the Holy Spirit, nor the source of the divine nature.

Mary is the mother of God, cos Jesus Christ is God and Mary is His mother, not the mother of His body but the mother of His entire person.


"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Martin Luther

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
John Calvin


Mother of God!

Jesus is a divine person who became man, and not a human person, that is why Mary is truly the “mother of God” Jesus is God, Mary is His mother, so she is the mother of God not to be confused with “source”, she is not the source of God or the mother of the divine nature, or the mother of the eternal Father, nor the mother of the spirit!

But mother of the Son who is God.

Only one person every has a family relationship with God, Mary; and she has three!

Daughter of the Father
Mother of the Son
Spouse of the Holy Spirit

And Jesus being our spiritual brother Mary is our spiritual mother!

God has no mother:

I never said He did, God is uncreated and eternal!

I said Mary is the mother of God!

What’s the difference?

It does not mean that Mary is the mother or source of the divine nature of God, or the mother of the father or the mother of the spirit.

it is a relationship between mother and child, Mary and Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is God;
Mary is His mother;
Mary is the mother of God to deny this is to deny the divinity of Christ and scripture. Lk 1:43

 

[Josheb]

It says by Adams sin many be dead Rom 5:15

That is true but there is no mention of "spiritually dead".

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Dead here isn't speaking about physical death, but spiritual, alienation from the life of God.

So you say but that is not an answer to the question asked. I did not ask where something we might call "spiritual death" can be inferred. I'd like to know where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead."

Can you show me where scripture does that?

Also mans depravity is due to being dead to God. Does this thread have to do with total depravity ?

perhaps, but I'm not interested in asking you more questions or reading about other inferential interpretations until the current question is answered.


Would you mind showing me where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead"?

 

[GeneZ]

But Mary is blessed before being offered the privilege and consenting to being the mother of God

God has always existed. God has no mother. That is another RCC error.

Mary was utilized so that the Soul of Jehovah could enter the human body that God chose for her to provide to make Himself to be a man.
A body that had genes in direct lineage to King David as promised to David.

Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased." Hebrews 10:5-6​

Please read that Scripture. "A body."

Mary was used of God to provide the human body for the preexisting soul of the Lord to make himself become as a man!


Jesus never called Mary, "mother." He referred to her as "woman."
No normal son calls his mother "woman."

The Holy Spirit provided the needed perfect genetic material to fertilize the ovum of Mary.
Jesus could not have a human father as to avoid the sin nature passed down by Adam.

grace and peace .................

 

[Eleanor]

Lk 1:43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

Mary is not the mother of the divinity, or the mother of the eternal father, or the mother of the Holy Spirit, nor the source of the divine nature.

Mary is the mother of God, cos Jesus Christ is God and Mary is His mother, not the mother of His body but the mother of His entire person.

She is the mother of his humanity, not his divinity. He was both.

The divine Son of God became human (Jn 1:14). She mothered the manhood, which is what man saw.

"She is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God ... It is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Martin Luther

"Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the eternal God."
John Calvin


Mother of God!

Jesus is a divine person who became man, and not a human person, that is why Mary is truly the “mother of God” Jesus is God, Mary is His mother, so she is the mother of God not to be confused with “source”, she is not the source of God or the mother of the divine nature, or the mother of the eternal Father, nor the mother of the spirit!

But mother of the Son who is God.

Only one person every has a family relationship with God, Mary; and she has three!

Daughter of the Father
Mother of the Son
Spouse of the Holy Spirit

And Jesus being our spiritual brother Mary is our spiritual mother!

God has no mother:

I never said He did, God is uncreated and eternal!

I said Mary is the mother of God!

What’s the difference?

It does not mean that Mary is the mother or source of the divine nature of God, or the mother of the father or the mother of the spirit.

it is a relationship between mother and child, Mary and Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is God;
Mary is His mother;
Mary is the mother of God to deny this is to deny the divinity of Christ and scripture. Lk 1:43

 

[GeneZ]

Only one faith eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Truth

Song of Solomon 4:1 Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes within thy locks: thy hair is as a flock of goats, that appear from mount Gilead.

Christ not only saves us from our past sins by forgiveness but he also preserves us from future sin by his grace, in both cases he is savior, and Mary was preserved from original sin and from all sin to the glory of God and the praise of Jesus Christ! Lk 1:49

Since when does the Holy Ghost overshadow a sinner? Lk 1:35

Since when does the Holy Ghost conceive in a sinner? Matt 1:20

Since when does sinner bear the Holy savior? The Holy Son of God? Lk 1:35

A bad tree cannot bear good fruit

Jesus was conceived pure and immaculate because Mary was pure and immaculate. As Job said “Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.” (Job 14:4).

“I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.” Zwingli

Ex 25 anything consecrated to God’s service must be holy, pure, and consecrated only to God’s holy purpose:
Rev 12:1 a woman clothed with the sun.
(Immaculate purity)

Gen 3:15
Lk 1:28
Lk 1:35
Lk 1:47
*Lk 1:49
Song of S. 1:2 & 2:1-2 & 4:1 & 4:7
Rev 12:1
Ex 25:8-13
Matt 5:8
Job 14:4
Ps 93:5
Sirach 24:22-28

Holy GHOST? You use an erroneous translation.

"Mother of God," sounds good to sentimental people.
Satan knows the best errors are the ones that sound good to man.

Tell me. Does God have an uncle? An aunt? A cousin?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Mother of God!

We're done here.

 

[GeneZ]

She is the mother of his humanity, not his divinity. He was both.

The divine Son of God became human (Jn 1:14). She mothered the manhood, which is what man saw.

She was only a provider of his body. Not the mother of his soul.
That soul was uniquely begotten by the Father which was eternally living in heaven before entering the body born of Mary.

The Lord God of Israel before the incarnation was being two natures in One eternally. He was being Soul and Deity.
Mary only provided a body for Jehovah's Soul.

In Heaven before the Incarnation the soul of Jesus was always being!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make my dwelling among you, and my soul will not
reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12



And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst
and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because
of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5



“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons
and your appointed feasts my soul hates; They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

There are yet theological mysteries yet to be solved in our day!

God is spirit in essence.
God is not soul in essence. (John 4:23-24)
Two different natures.

grace and peace ...............

 

[Eleanor]

She was only a provider of his body. Not the mother of his soul.

No human being is the mother of anyone's soul or spirit.

That soul was uniquely begotten by the Father which was eternally living in heaven before entering the body born of Mary.

The Lord God of Israel before the incarnation was being two natures in One eternally. He was being Soul and Deity.
Mary only provided a body for Jehovah's Soul.

In Heaven before the Incarnation the soul of Jesus was always being!

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make my dwelling among you, and my soul will not
reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12



And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst
and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because
of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5



“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons
and your appointed feasts my soul hates; They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

There are yet theological mysteries yet to be solved in our day!

God is spirit in essence.
God is not soul in essence. (John 4:23-24)
Two different natures.

grace and peace ...............

 

[brightfame52]

That is true but there is no mention of "spiritually dead".

So you say but that is not an answer to the question asked. I did not ask where something we might call "spiritual death" can be inferred. I'd like to know where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead."

Can you show me where scripture does that?

perhaps, but I'm not interested in asking you more questions or reading about other inferential interpretations until the current question is answered.


Would you mind showing me where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead"?

I believe its spiritually dead or dead to God, and that's mans total depravity or total inability. So as long as man is dead, he has no spiritual life and ability.

 

[Eleanor]

That is true but there is no mention of "spiritually dead".

Dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).

So you say but that is not an answer to the question asked. I did not ask where something we might call "spiritual death" can be inferred. I'd like to know where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead."

Can you show me where scripture does that?

perhaps, but I'm not interested in asking you more questions or reading about other inferential interpretations until the current question is answered.


Would you mind showing me where scripture uses the phrase "spiritually dead"?

 

[Josheb]

I believe its spiritually dead or dead to God, and that's mans total depravity or total inability. So as long as man is dead, he has no spiritual life and ability.

No, total depravity does not mean "dead to God." If you've read the early posts in this thread then the limits of TD, their application solely to the matter of salvation, and the common practice of misapplying the doctrine have previously been covered.


How about this: instead of "spiritually dead" what do you think of "dead in sin," or "dead in transgression". Those are terms scripture does use. There's no need for inferential reading of the text when we use that language. It's also more exact and therefore more defining (less ambiguous). We could speak of "transgressional death," or "sinful death," and that specificity would not only be completely consistent with the actual words of scripture. Then, the next time someone asks us, "Would you mind showing me where scripture uses the phrase 'dead in transgression,' or 'transgressionally dead'?" we can readily answer with scriptures like,


Ephesians 2:1, 5
And you were dead in your offenses and sins... even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ...

Colossians 2:13 KJV
And you, being dead in your sins...
.

Dead in trespasses and sins (Eph 2:1).

Yep.

That verse says dead in sins, not "spiritually dead."

 

[GeneZ]

No human being is the mother of anyone's soul or spirit.

In the mean while.... did you see the OT references to the Soul of Jesus which was in Heaven before the Incarnation?


'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new.
Moreover, I will make my dwelling among you, and my soul will not
reject you.'I will also walk among you and be your God, and you shall
be My people." Lev 26:10-12



And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst
and to serve Jehovah, so that his soul became impatient because
of the trouble of Israel. Jdges 10:16



Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,
and anyone loving violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5



“Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me.
The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies—
I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons
and your appointed feasts my soul hates; They are a trouble to Me,
I am weary of bearing them.. Isa 1:13-14

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

No, total depravity does not mean "dead to God."

As I understand it, it does !

 

[brightfame52]

@Josheb

Ephesians 2:1, 5
And you were dead in your offenses and sins... even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ...

Colossians 2:13 KJV
And you, being dead in your sins...

Same thing, No Spiritual life. What does Jesus mean here about having no life in you Jn Jn 6:53


Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

 

[Josheb]

As I understand it, it does !

The doctrine simply means those affected by sin cannot and do not approach God in their own might for salvation. TD is the effect of sin than the nature or ability of the sinner. TD does not have anything to say about whether or not a sinner can do moral good in other areas of life. It makes no claim the person who has sinned is only totally morally and spiritually depraved. These are common misconceptions about TD and many a strawman has been argued because of these misconceptions. The doctrine is limited specifically to the matter of salvation.

That is not to say sinners aren't affected by sin in other ways. Sinful humans are capable of morally good acts and morally bad acts, but even a morally good act done in the sinful flesh has no salvific merit. God might commend it as a good act but works do not save, especially not works done by sinful flesh. Simply put, sin does not affect salvation from sin.

It does not help that there is enormous inconsistency from teacher to teacher. Reformed teacher Steve Lawson over at R. C. Sproul's Ligonier, for example, states,

"The doctrine of total depravity does not mean that all humankind is as evil as it possibly could be. Rather, it means that sin affects the whole person. We are born corrupted, poisoned, and polluted by sin. Our minds are darkened and we cannot see or understand the truth. Our hearts are defiled so that they do not love the truth. We love what we should hate, and we hate what we should love. Our wills are in bondage to sin, and we cannot believe the gospel in and of themselves. We sin because we are sinners and because we have a sin nature."​

R. C. Sproul himself wrote,

"In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be.......... So the idea of total in total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin."​

We're not as bad as we could be. We are not utterly depraved, only totally depraved . To be as wicked as we could be would mean no moral good could occur. Seth could not worship God, Noah couldn't build a boat, Abram couldn't leave Ur, etc. Remember TULIP is specifically about salvation. The "T" in TULIP is therefore, specifically about salvation. Because the effects of sin are total, we cannot act to affect our own salvation.

 

[Josheb]

Same thing, No Spiritual life. What does Jesus mean here about having no life in you Jn Jn 6:53


Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

No, not the same thing. Adding to scripture is not a good thing, especially when it's not necessary to do so.


The implication of "spiritually dead" is that the physically living person is walking around with no spirit, or the corpse of a spirit inside, and that's not scriptural.

 

[ReverendRV]

No, not the same thing. Adding to scripture is not a good thing, especially when it's not necessary to do so.


The implication of "spiritually dead" is that the physically living person is walking around with no spirit, or the corpse of a spirit inside, and that's not scriptural.

The Living Dead ~ by ReverndRV * November 2

Ephesians 2:1+2 ESV; And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

History is filled with the stories of Night Walkers. Vampires ruled the nights and people were afraid to go out in the evening. Later there were stories about Mummies coming to life thru the power of an ancient curse. Now our society is consumed by a different kind of Night Walker; Zombies, the walking dead. It’s not such a far-fetched prospect; the Bible talks about a few who have been raised from the Dead. None of these though were menacing figures; for instance, Lazarus was the friend of Jesus. ~ When Paul wrote these verses, he was talking about another kind of the living dead; you and me. There was no one else more alive than Adam and Eve but God said the day they ate fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they would surely die. They did eat the fruit but to our surprise they lived for hundreds of years after that; even though a part of them did die that day. ~ They were the first walking dead in history…

Because of this, we are born as members of the walking dead. This may be hard to believe but if we met Adam before he Sinned, we would be frightened because of how alive he was; like when people in the Bible were frightened of Angels after they met them. Imagine being more afraid of the walking Living than of the walking dead? ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What would you call someone who Lied to you? A Liar, right? Have you ever Stolen ‘anything’? What would you call someone who Stole your car? A Thief, right? Have you Honored your father and mother? Did you ever give your mother a reason to cry? The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil represents the Moral Law of God; the Ten Commandments. So far you have taken three bites out of the apple and you’ve learned what Good is; through being Evil. If God judged you by this Standard would you be innocent or guilty? Would you go to Heaven or go to Hell?

You’ve eaten from the same Tree as they did; to God you are a Night Walker! What you need is to be raised from the dead. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life. Jesus Christ is the only other person who is as alive as Adam and Eve, but he took the form of a servant and had no beauty that we should desire him. His Soul was attractive though because he was born Sinless, and he grew in Wisdom. Only he was Good enough to please God and to be the Savior of the world. He shed his blood on a Cross for the Remission of Sin, and was buried; but he arose from the grave as the Author of Life. We’re Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in the risen Savior Jesus Christ, without Works lest we boast. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as your Lord God and start going to Church; and read the Bible. ~ We fear Death; as seen in our fascination with the Dead. Fear of the Living God is even greater; the beginning of Wisdom…

1st Samuel 2:6 NIV; "The LORD brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the grave and raises up.

 

[Josheb]

No Spiritual life.

There is spiritual life; it is not the life of the Spirit.

• All humans have a spirit. To be human is to have one. To not have a spirit is to not be human.
• The spirit humans have is not the Holy Spirit, the Separate Sacred Spirit of God.
• Humanity is inherently spiritual; most humans idolatrously so. The problem is so pervasive that God separated a people from all the rest and made the holy (separated for sacred purpose).
• There is spiritual life, but not Spiritual life.
• Furthermore, God's Spirit dells in various men in various ways that are not salvific.

And these matters get muddied with a nowhere-found-in-scripture label like "spiritually dead."

Numbers 27:18
So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;

Job 32:7-9
I thought age should speak, and increased years should teach wisdom. But it is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives them understanding. The abundant in years may not be wise, nor may elders understand justice.

Psalm 32:2
How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no deceit!

Proverbs 18:14
The spirit of a man can endure his sickness, But as for a broken spirit who can bear it?

Proverbs 25:28
Like a city that is broken into and without walls Is a man who has no control over his spirit.

Daniel 5:11
There is a man in your kingdom in whom is a spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of your father, illumination, insight and wisdom like the wisdom of the gods were found in him. And King Nebuchadnezzar, your father, your father the king, appointed him chief of the magicians, conjurers, Chaldeans and diviners.

Luke 2:25
And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.

2 Peter 1:21
for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.


Not a single one of those examples is of a saved-from-sin John 3:3 regenerate person. So, we see there is a variety of spiritual activity in sinful and unregenerate humans. The phrase "spiritually dead" can be useful but it is prone to be misleading, as evidenced by the responses the inquiry received. The correct answer is "It is not a phrase used in scripture, but it is one that can be inferred by reading scripture a certain way."

 

[Josheb]

Because of this, we are born as members of the walking dead.

I like that imagery, but the fact remains (as explained in Post #299) there is not spiritless human.

I have often talked of the sinner as an "animated corpse plodding through what is falsely imagined to be a life toward inevitable destruction." And if asked, I'd readily say there's not a word there actually used by scripture to define "dead in sin."