Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[GeneZ]

LoL, nothing left to rely on, so start the insults, right? Nothing new. I see you avoided the passages that you requested like the plague. Gene either debate the topics or I'll bid you a farewell.

Bid me farewell. If you wish.
But, stick around just the same.

 

[GeneZ]

​

John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

He raises the "spiritually dead" to regeneration.

What Jesus wills is not arbitrary as some portray the sovereignty of God to be.
"God does as He pleases!"

Those whom He wills to regenerate have passed God's testing of their soul while he was drawing them.

For example.... You can pray for your aunt 23 hours a day for God to save her.
But, if she does not qualify for what God requires?
Your will means nothing. For, the Son gives life to whom he will. He alone knows what is needed.

 

[GeneZ]

All of this and still no answer to my questions. My teacher for the record is God's word, not a man-made heresy of dispensationalism​

Do you still live under the Law?

If you do? And, its the correct thing to do?

Then you earned the right to call dispensationalism a heresy.

 

[Ladodgers6]

You are full of head knowledge.

You are still treating Christianity as if it were an academic subject.

Oh, so you would be more comfortable if I was a dumb Christian, a prime victim for false teachers, right?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Sometimes truth is seen as an insult.

It all depends upon who is willing to fight the good fight.

And, who the pacifists are.

This says it all! People don't want the truth, because it will expose their evil deeds.

John 3:19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed.

But his sheep will hear his voice and follow, not those who are not among his sheep.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Bid me farewell. If you wish.
But, stick around just the same.

I like debating people who know the topics of discussion. Not those who do not address the tough questions, and start to hurl insults because they have nothing else. I respect those who say that is a tough question or give me some time to contemplate it and get back to you. I don't have a problem with that. But having to write this instead of having a debate with substance is not edifying for me or anyone.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Do you still live under the Law?

If you do? And, its the correct thing to do?

Then you earned the right to call dispensationalism a heresy.

The contractual Law was fulfilled, which removes the curse from those who believe and are in Christ. There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. This eschatological event is in the present time the moment we believe, as God himself declares the believing sinner righteous because of Christ through Faith Alone!​

 

[GeneZ]

Oh, so you would be more comfortable if I was a dumb Christian, a prime victim for false teachers, right?

The Bible shows that there is a difference between "dumb" and what is "stupid."
They are not the same thing.

One can have an IQ of 180, and be stupid.

One can have a very low IQ and he will be dumb, but not seen as stupid by God.

God is merciful to the dumb. He requires less of them.

Here is why..

​

......."Dumb"... can not know.

......."Stupid".... will not know.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid."

Proverbs 12:1


..........​

It is a normal part of growing in Christ that we must be corrected by the Word of God at some points in our walk.
Corrected away from what we thought is correct if we are ever going to know and understand His ways.
His ways that are not our way of thinking. His ways at first may seem foreign to us.

Subjectivity is the enemy we must learn to deal with, or subjectivity is going to deal with us.
For subjectivity causes us to fall short of pleasing the Lord.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord."

Isaiah 55:8

.......​

 

[Ladodgers6]

The Bible shows that there is a difference between "dumb" and what is "stupid."
They are not the same thing.

One can have an IQ of 180, and be stupid.

One can have a very low IQ and he will be dumb, but not seen as stupid by God.

God is merciful to the dumb. He requires less of them.

Here is why..

​

......."Dumb"... can not know.

......."Stupid".... will not know.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but whoever hates correction is stupid."

Proverbs 12:1


..........​

It is a normal part of growing in Christ that we must be corrected by the Word of God at some points in our walk.
Corrected away from what we thought is correct if we are ever going to know and understand His ways.
His ways that are not our way of thinking. His ways at first may seem foreign to us.

Subjectivity is the enemy we must learn to deal with, or subjectivity is going to deal with us.
For subjectivity causes us to fall short of pleasing the Lord.

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord."

Isaiah 55:8

.......​

Loo Gene we are getting way off track. I really don't care about your judgmental assumptions. Before you start judging others take the pole out of your own eye, right?

But I'll try one more time. Will explain your own words that, "God's silencing and forcing sin..."? What do you mean by DRAWING?

 

[GeneZ]

Loo Gene we are getting way off track. I really don't care about your judgmental assumptions. Before you start judging others take the pole out of your own eye, right?

But I'll try one more time. Will explain your own words that, "God's silencing and forcing sin..."? What do you mean by DRAWING?

Nice side step....

I already have explained.

Would you like me to copy and paste what you did not see?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Nice side step....

I already have explained.

Would you like me to copy and paste what you did not see?

Why not go for it!

 

[GeneZ]

Why not go for it

Whoah! Unfair... You are a staff member.

I was going to do the right thing .
And, put you on Ignore.
But, I can not, because I see you are now administration.

That allows you to gaslight if you should so choose.

You should have a second account so we can all be treated fairly.

I do not want your badgering me anymore.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Whoah! Unfair... You are a staff member.

I was going to do the right thing .
And, put you on Ignore.
But, I can not, because I see you are now administration.

That allows you to gaslight if you should so choose.

You should have a second account so we can all be treated fairly.

I do not want your badgering me anymore.

Still with the baseless accusations to avoid the tough questions. But I will agree with you, we should part ways, this is not edifying for anyone. So, I bid you a farewell.

 

[GeneZ]

Still with the baseless accusations to avoid the tough questions. But I will agree with you, we should part ways, this is not edifying for anyone. So, I bid you a farewell.

They were not tough questions. They were questions that would require a thesis to answer properly. Then told one can not answer the questions as he claimed victory. Way out of line for a forum format.

Seen it done before over the years.

Farewell.....

 

[Ritajanice]

Those who accept the thoughts during God's drawing that the Father gives (while overpowering grace is making their souls able to see). And, they choose to learn from what they were shown? They will at the right time be handed over by the Father to Christ, to whom they will come to without hesitation.

After regeneration takes place? Then the Christian is commanded to form his own civilian army by means of grace and learning the Bible from teachers He has assigned to keep the soul liberated from the flesh and the devil. Once a soul is saved/ regenerated, God withdraws his application of his overpowering commanding army of pre-salvation grace.

From then on the grace we are to enjoy is to be determined by how we choose for or against growing in the grace and knowledge of God's Word. The once overpowering liberating grace army of God goes back home and leaves the liberated soul to learn to fight for his own freedom. The believer is now to do so by training for spiritual warfare. To be accomplished by means of God supplying us grace and truth that God provides.

He wants us to seek and become strong in knowledge of God's Word. For truth is to be for our soul's national defense.

Humanism!!....imo/ belief...

 

[Josheb]

According to your specific indoctrination.............

Ad hominem noted. Thank you for your time. Let me know when you can keep the posts about the posts and not the posters and there's an actual and sincere interest in discussing the doctrine of Total Depravity and the degree to which it is or is not a misnomer.

According to the Bible....

....the phrase "total depravity" does not exist.

 

[brightfame52]

Ad hominem noted. Thank you for your time. Let me know when you can keep the posts about the posts and not the posters and there's an actual and sincere interest in discussing the doctrine of Total Depravity and the degree to which it is or is not a misnomer.

....the phrase "total depravity" does not exist.

Nope but its implied because man naturally is dead to God and evil. He can do no good spiritually because he lacks spiritual life, which means he lacks spiritual ability.

 

[Josheb]

Nope but....

Are you presuming to speak for GeneZ? Why are you stepping into a difference between two posters when you have just agreed to my position?

...its implied because man naturally is dead to God and evil.

There is a lot wrong with that statement. First and foremost, we do not develop sound understanding and sound doctrine from what is "implied." Implied-only views are prone to error. Second, you have to define your terms because words like "man" (man as God mad man? sinful man? regenerate man?), "naturally," "dead" nad "to God and evil" have many definitions (even the Bible uses these terms diversely). The statement is meaningless absent the definitions.

Furthermore, anything not specifically related to GeneZ's personal definition of total depravity or the formal doctrine held by monergists is off-topic. Don't add a third perspective to a discussion between Gen and me.

He can do no good spiritually because he lacks spiritual life, which means he lacks spiritual ability.

That is true, but it has nothing to do with the doctrine of Total Depravity (TD). As I and other have pointed out TD is a very specific and specifically limited soteriological position. It does NOT mean humans who have sinned are completely incapable of any morally good belief, thought, or action. The formal doctrine ot Total Depravity simply states the effects of sin are so total that they prevent humans who have disobeyed God from coming to God specifically for salvation in their own might or on their own merits. Total Depravity is more a position about sin, not humanity. Otherwise well-meaning and earnest Christians screw that up often and they end up arguing straw men - they're arguing against something that has nothing to do with Td, while incorrectly thinking and claiming their argument is TD.


This op has taken such an approach. It uses doctrinal language but ignores the specifics of the doctrine. In its stead it asserts a position believed to be firmly based in scripture (with some veracity) and then calls it the true version of total depravity. The op would have been much better had a different term been used because "total depravity" of the doctrine of Total Depravity is not a misnomer once the doctrinal position is correctly understood.


It would be like me claiming to be a carpenter never having driven a nail, cut a board, or built anything out of wood. If I say, "I turn bolts and nuts, and replace parts and tune up engines - I am a carpenter!" that's sheer nonsense. I'm a hiker. If I say, "Jesus walked everywhere he went, and I have hiked the entire Appalachian Trail, the Tuscarora, the Continental Divide, and many more paths..... I am a carpenter like jesus!" then that is not only gross misunderstanding of scripture and reason, it is irrational to the point of delusion.


Read the thread. Find out why GeneZ said, "According to your specific indoctrination..." and why I think the comment is off-topic, fallacious, and trolling. Then ask yourself why you felt the need to jump in at that point.

 

[donadams]

Man since the fall of Adam has been depraved. Meaning...
Man took on a fallen nature that dominates over his thinking.

He can not believe unless God supplies grace to overcome his sinful flesh that will be dominating over the soul.

Without grace man is totally helpless to resist his sin nature in relation to God's Spirit.
So, that being so. Without God's enabling power of grace man's soul will always reject God.

Its the flesh's dominance over the soul prevents man's soul from accepting God.

But, to say man is totally depraved?
Leaves God with nothing to save.

When God saves a soul he has crucified that man's flesh in Christ.

Again, to say man is totally depraved? Leaves God with nothing to save.

Total depravity would have to mean that the flesh and soul are each hopelessly depraved.

But, there is a total depravity!

Man will become totally depraved when he insists upon rejecting God during times that grace was being implemented to paralyze the effects of the flesh over the soul. Paralyzing the sin nature is by grace makes that soul momentarily truly free to either choose for, or against God, while God was drawing him by grace.

If that soul during God's drawing was not being controlled by the flesh because grace was holding its effect over the soul down? Its then that the soul chooses to be depraved. Just like Satan and his angels chose from their perfection to reject the Lord did, to claim themselves God over their own lives.

Now.. with total depravity being established? That soul is sent to the Lake of Fire. There was nothing to save = Total depravity.

grace and peace ......................

What about Mary?

 

[brightfame52]

Are you presuming to speak for GeneZ? Why are you stepping into a difference between two posters when you have just agreed to my position?

There is a lot wrong with that statement. First and foremost, we do not develop sound understanding and sound doctrine from what is "implied." Implied-only views are prone to error. Second, you have to define your terms because words like "man" (man as God mad man? sinful man? regenerate man?), "naturally," "dead" nad "to God and evil" have many definitions (even the Bible uses these terms diversely). The statement is meaningless absent the definitions.

Furthermore, anything not specifically related to GeneZ's personal definition of total depravity or the formal doctrine held by monergists is off-topic. Don't add a third perspective to a discussion between Gen and me.

That is true, but it has nothing to do with the doctrine of Total Depravity (TD). As I and other have pointed out TD is a very specific and specifically limited soteriological position. It does NOT mean humans who have sinned are completely incapable of any morally good belief, thought, or action. The formal doctrine ot Total Depravity simply states the effects of sin are so total that they prevent humans who have disobeyed God from coming to God specifically for salvation in their own might or on their own merits. Total Depravity is more a position about sin, not humanity. Otherwise well-meaning and earnest Christians screw that up often and they end up arguing straw men - they're arguing against something that has nothing to do with Td, while incorrectly thinking and claiming their argument is TD.


This op has taken such an approach. It uses doctrinal language but ignores the specifics of the doctrine. In its stead it asserts a position believed to be firmly based in scripture (with some veracity) and then calls it the true version of total depravity. The op would have been much better had a different term been used because "total depravity" of the doctrine of Total Depravity is not a misnomer once the doctrinal position is correctly understood.


It would be like me claiming to be a carpenter never having driven a nail, cut a board, or built anything out of wood. If I say, "I turn bolts and nuts, and replace parts and tune up engines - I am a carpenter!" that's sheer nonsense. I'm a hiker. If I say, "Jesus walked everywhere he went, and I have hiked the entire Appalachian Trail, the Tuscarora, the Continental Divide, and many more paths..... I am a carpenter like jesus!" then that is not only gross misunderstanding of scripture and reason, it is irrational to the point of delusion.


Read the thread. Find out why GeneZ said, "According to your specific indoctrination..." and why I think the comment is off-topic, fallacious, and trolling. Then ask yourself why you felt the need to jump in at that point.

I added my comment because its an open forum, and the comment was relevant to the topic.