Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?

[Bob Carabbio]

You are confessing that God is the author of sin by creating Adam sinful.

Where'd you get that foolishness??? God Created man with a HUMAN NATURE, and free will. MAN followed the "temptation sequence" detailed in James 1.

And WHEN he PURPOSELY SINNED (by tossing God and His instructions under the bus and siding with satan) he became a "Sinner". Simple as that. I became a Sinner in exactly the same way. It's a lead-pipe cinch that you did also.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It did because of the fall.

The "fall" was the RESULT of Adam's own human LUST, which he had BEFORE the fall, add to that, satan's "enticement", so Adam allowed his lust (strong personal desire) to "Conceive", and result in SINFUL ACTIONS (he ate the fruit that HE KNEW that he had been instructed not to).

Since it was the "FIRST SIN", that made it "Original". But None of us inherited anything from that. We're all just as Human as Adam always was.

Adam's human nature never changed - but His environment certainly did (the earth was CURSED - for his sake).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Total Depravity. Was it a misnomer?​

It's "JUST ANOTHER" religious "Buzz word" that means different things to different religious paradigms. Calvies have their definition, and other paradigm have theirs. In any case it's unimportant - nothing but "Theology".

Bottom line - NOBODY COMES TO CHRIST, unless they're drawn. I was "Drawn", and the last time that happened, I surrendered, and repented calling out in FAITH to be saved. Then everything changed.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You are confessing that God is the author of sin by creating Adam sinful.

Being able to sin (tempted) is not the same thing as having a nature that will make us to sin.

James 1 covers the "Temptation / Sin" process. It's always been the same.

 

[Ladodgers6]

It's "JUST ANOTHER" religious "Buzz word" that means different things to different religious paradigms. Calvies have their definition, and other paradigm have theirs. In any case it's unimportant - nothing but "Theology".

Bottom line - NOBODY COMES TO CHRIST, unless they're drawn. I was "Drawn", and the last time that happened, I surrendered, and repented calling out in FAITH to be saved. Then everything changed.

I agree with some of this stuff, and disagree with you disregarding theology. Like it or not your are a theologian discussing theology. Total Depravity, simply means that the fall affected every faculty of our being. It penetrated to our core, meaning our hearts and minds. This is crucial to understand because first of all it is Biblical teaching. Second of all the Law constantly exposes our sinful condition before a Holy God. Why people do not want to put in the work to study these crucial topics is beyond me.​

 

[GeneZ]

Where'd you get that foolishness???

From you.

You said -quote :

Nope. Man's (and Woman's) nature has never changed.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/total-depravity-was-it-a-misnomer.380/post-21686

What you said means man always had a fallen nature. He never changed.

Careful then what you say, if you did not mean that..

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I agree with some of this stuff, and disagree with you disregarding theology. Like it or not your are a theologian discussing theology. Total Depravity, simply means that the fall affected every faculty of our being. It penetrated to our core, meaning our hearts and minds. This is crucial to understand because first of all it is Biblical teaching. Second of all the Law constantly exposes our sinful condition before a Holy God. Why people do not want to put in the work to study these crucial topics is beyond me.​

Because they're not "Crucial" at all. When I was Born again, none of them were of any significance at all.

I don't agree with any of your "evaluations" of the effects of the "Fall". remember, that Adam and Eve SINNED exactly according to the sequence in James 1:14,15. So apparently, according to YOUR "THEOLOGY" they "already had a Sin Nature".

People's HUMAN NATURE never changed, only their environment. The EARTH was CURSED "For Adam's SAKE". Adam and Eve were not "Cursed", but their lives DID get more difficult, since now they had to WORK to survive, instead of "having it all" in the Garden.

 

[GeneZ]

Why God gave us the Ignore function in the forum.


For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” Rom 9:15


grace and peace ...........​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Because they're not "Crucial" at all. When I was Born again, none of them were of any significance at all.

I don't agree with any of your "evaluations" of the effects of the "Fall". remember, that Adam and Eve SINNED exactly according to the sequence in James 1:14,15. So apparently, according to YOUR "THEOLOGY" they "already had a Sin Nature".

People's HUMAN NATURE never changed, only their environment. The EARTH was CURSED "For Adam's SAKE". Adam and Eve were not "Cursed", but their lives DID get more difficult, since now they had to WORK to survive, instead of "having it all" in the Garden.

Well how did you know you needed a Savior? Only convicted sinners who are regenerated by the Spirit know they plight before a Holy God, and are driven to the only mercy-seat to be saved; namely Christ Jesus. It's not the experience or the "feeling", but the knowing and the facts of what God has does in Christ that saves sinners! And know the facts of who Jesus is and what he has done for me or you received through Faith Alone. Meaning trusting in him who justifies the ungodly, that he word is true and can trusted to it's fulfillment in saving sinners! That Christ has done everything that God commanded him, and redeemed his people from their sins. Only in Christ through faith Alone are we counted righteous. And being in Christ and counted righteous, now means, there is no more condemnation for those who are in Christ!

This eschatological end-time judgement comes into the present time and pronounces the believer righteous by God. But why did God do all of this to begin with Bob?

If you do not believe the fall affected the whole person, faculties and all, heart, mind, soul. Then why do people even need to be saved anyway?​

 

[Bob Carabbio]

From you.

You said -quote :

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/total-depravity-was-it-a-misnomer.380/post-21686

What you said means man always had a fallen nature. He never changed.

Careful then what you say, if you did not mean that..

SO why did Adam and Eve (Without a "Fallen Nature" supposedly) SIN exactly according to the sequence in James 1:14,15, which effects all of us in the same way???

Obviously, then, NOTHING in A&E's HUMAN NATURE changed, except that they both died Spiritually (Which happens when you toss God under the bus).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

OT saints were also born again.

Nope, they weren't. The Holy Spirit indwelled NOBODY until after Calvary. It wasn't possible.

But, when they became born again they did not have the Holy Spirit take up permanent residence in their body.

SO then they weren't "Born again" at all. They only had the Holy SPirit "upon them". Jesus said "you KNOW HIM because He's been WITH YOU, but He will be IN YOU". John 20:22 was when THAT happened.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well how did you know you needed a Savior?​

Conviction of SIN, and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit does that for you.

The FIRST TIME that happened for me was back in the '50s as the result of "The Hour of Decision" radio show. Graham gave the invitation, and Beverley shea did "Just as I am", and I KNEW that I needed to be saved, but didn't really know what to do, so I did nothing, and the Conviction passed after a while. I made it a POINT NOT to be around when the "Hour of decision" after that. "Conviction of SIN" isn't pleasant, so I avoided things that might cause it.

But in '63, after a nervous breakdown, suicidal tendencies, and a hopeless future, in Houston (where I'd gone to escape my situation, but brought the problem along since it was me) the fellow I shared an apartment with got saved, and just the look of peace and joy on his face brought CONVICTION back. I KNEW I had to have that, or I'd die.

Since he was saved as a result of "Southern Baptist" outreach, Calvinist "Regeneration theology" never came up. ALL WE KNEW was "Conviction of SIN" by the Holy Spirit, Jesus and his Sacrifice being the Answer, and the need to Surrender and Repent. And of course that was enough.

Being "Born Again" isn't "Theological", it's a PERSONAL INTERACTION between the person under conviction, and God by the Holy SPirit. I cried out (literally) for Him to SAVE ME - and He did. That's when everything changed. THEN, of course, I started to learn what it was all about starting with going through the Bible for the first time in many years.

Only convicted sinners who are regenerated by the Spirit know they plight before a Holy God,​

​

Actually "Conviction of SIN, and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit does all that nicely. I don't know about any "Previous regeneration" process.

why did God do all of this to begin with Bob?​

Simple!!! I (along with everybody else who SINNED) was LOST IN SIN, and Jesus came and died as the SIN OFFERING that cleanses from SIN. So now IN HIM, I'm perfect before God with Jesus' perfection (which is the only "perfection" I'll ever have on earth.

If you do not believe the fall affected the whole person, faculties and all, heart, mind, soul. Then why do people even need to be saved anyway?

Because, just like ADAM BEFORE THE "FALL", we let our Personal strong desires (Lusts) CONCEIVE, and become SINFUL ACTIONS, resulting in our falling short of God's Glory.

You apparently need Adam's HUMAN NATURE to "Change", to support your "Theology", but it didn't. After he SINNED, he became a "Sinner" just like the rest of us. Did YOUR "Human Nature change, after you sinned the first time???

When he was PERFECT (without your so called "Sin nature"), He fell into sin, so nothing in him changed at all. He acted in keeping with His HUMAN NATURE, just like you and I, and, as he was WARNED, he DIED spiritually on the spot (just like we all do when we first SIN), but remained physically alive for many years afterwards..

No argument about Adam's "Environment" changing (since the earth was CURSED for his sake).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It did because of the fall.

Once Adam was restored, yes.


Do you have scripture proof?

It's right there in front of you. Adam, spiritually alive BEFORE the fall, Tossed GOD under the bus anyway, and sided with satan, so obviously Adam was CREATED with what Calvinists call a "Corrupt nature". no argument that Adam died SPirituall on the spot, and that his ENVIRONMENT (being cursed) changed - for his sake. But Adam started wit a "Human nature" that never changed. "Corrupt nature", or "Sinful nature" are nothing but "theological rationalizations". Adam, you, and I followed the James 1 "temptation sequence" accurately. so no change at all.

 

[Ladodgers6]

It did because of the fall.

Once Adam was restored, yes.


Do you have scripture proof?

See brother they make assumption without the facts! The smart move is the due diligence of reading, researching and studying it then make a conclusion based upon the facts of Scripture. But they will not put in the work to seek the truth.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Conviction of SIN, and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit does that for you.

Okay, can you define this for us? Does the person request the Holy Spirit or summoned the Spirit. Is there a step or process in getting the Holy Spirit? Follow???

The FIRST TIME that happened for me was back in the '50s as the result of "The Hour of Decision" radio show. Graham gave the invitation, and Beverley shea did "Just as I am", and I KNEW that I needed to be saved, but didn't really know what to do, so I did nothing, and the Conviction passed after a while. I made it a POINT NOT to be around when the "Hour of decision" after that. "Conviction of SIN" isn't pleasant, so I avoided things that might cause it.

Billy Graham? As far as the rest of what you wrote, I am lost and can't make head or tails of it. Where is the preaching of Law & Gospel? Where is the written word? Law preaching highlights our sinful disposition and the sanction against us; which brings knowledge of sin; condemnation because of Original sin & personal sins; sentence of punishment and death! Without God's Word which is Alive; it's his living Word. Brings knowledge, illumination, understanding, conviction, terror because it exposes us for who we are before a Holy God! Read Jonathan Edward's short book entitled, Sinners in the hands of an angry God. This is Law preaching, and it should bring horror to ones heart and soul.

Then follows the Promise of the Gospel, the sweet tasting water that gives the ungodly the FREE GIFT of God's righteousness and forgiveness! The Gospel is not a to do list or a DIY project for getting yourself saved. But the announcement of what God has done in Christ to save sinners! And this Free Gift is received through Faith Alone apart from any works we do. Christ has already done everything and fulfilled that God requires! This is the great news for the ungodly! Because through Faith Alone we receive the righteousness of Christ that clothed us, and our sin is imputed to Christ. This is called the marvelous exchange!​

But in '63, after a nervous breakdown, suicidal tendencies, and a hopeless future, in Houston (where I'd gone to escape my situation, but brought the problem along since it was me) the fellow I shared an apartment with got saved, and just the look of peace and joy on his face brought CONVICTION back. I KNEW I had to have that, or I'd die.

Bob look listen to me for a minute. There is nothing worthy of God's favor in us, other than trusting and resting on Christ Alone for everything! Read Paul's struggle with his own sin in Romans 7, and how he finds peace and rest in Christ Alone! Stop trying to find something worthy in yourself, there is nothing in us that will ever merit God's favor. Even Paul calls himself the chief of sinners! But through faith alone considering everything else as dung and only trusting in Christ and what he did for you is what saves, Bob! This is the only place a sinner like me and you can find Salvation, peace, joy, love, life, happiness, freedom, a loving father, not a righteous judge. For now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ. This is the best news any ungodly person can ever hear!

Romans 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works
​

Also read John Bunyan book on justification by faith.

Since he was saved as a result of "Southern Baptist" outreach, Calvinist "Regeneration theology" never came up. ALL WE KNEW was "Conviction of SIN" by the Holy Spirit, Jesus and his Sacrifice being the Answer, and the need to Surrender and Repent. And of course that was enough.

We must hear and read the Gospel that Paul preached everyday!

Being "Born Again" isn't "Theological", it's a PERSONAL INTERACTION between the person under conviction, and God by the Holy SPirit. I cried out (literally) for Him to SAVE ME - and He did. That's when everything changed. THEN, of course, I started to learn what it was all about starting with going through the Bible for the first time in many years.

I agree that it is personal because when the Law & Gospel is preached to you, it's you is to believe it or not. But people often are discouraged to read God's written word, that he gave to us to study and seek the truth. And it is by Scripture Alone that God's reveals to us his truth! Agree with it or not, but by writing your arguments here you are a theologian. The study of God's word is theology. And we must grow in the knowledge of God's word, Paul said. By this we will not be deceived by false teachers.

And yes it's the Holy Spirit that convicts of sin once the Gospel is preached or read. The Holy Spirit bears witness to the truth in God's written word!​

Actually "Conviction of SIN, and of Judgement by the Holy Spirit does all that nicely. I don't know about any "Previous regeneration" process.

In the Reformed we teach and believe that a sinner must be regeneration by the Holy Spirit to understand God's word, then proceeds faith.

Simple!!! I (along with everybody else who SINNED) was LOST IN SIN, and Jesus came and died as the SIN OFFERING that cleanses from SIN. So now IN HIM, I'm perfect before God with Jesus' perfection (which is the only "perfection" I'll ever have on earth.

How does Christ cleanses sin from sinners?

Because, just like ADAM BEFORE THE "FALL", we let our Personal strong desires (Lusts) CONCEIVE, and become SINFUL ACTIONS, resulting in our falling short of God's Glory.

You apparently need Adam's HUMAN NATURE to "Change", to support your "Theology", but it didn't. After he SINNED, he became a "Sinner" just like the rest of us. Did YOUR "Human Nature change, after you sinned the first time???

When he was PERFECT (without your so called "Sin nature"), He fell into sin, so nothing in him changed at all. He acted in keeping with His HUMAN NATURE, just like you and I, and, as he was WARNED, he DIED spiritually on the spot (just like we all do when we first SIN), but remained physically alive for many years afterwards..

No argument about Adam's "Environment" changing (since the earth was CURSED for his sake).

Here Bob here's a website I want to you go to and learn in more detail of Depravity of sin, Justification through Faith Alone and Regeneration.

whitehorseinn.org

 

[Bob Carabbio]

In the Reformed

That pretty much says it all.

 

[Ladodgers6]

That pretty much says it all.

Okay, do you know what the Reformation was about? Again making blind assumptions is not edifying or smart, right? Shouldn't believers be like the Bereans who even challenged the Apostle Paul, and looked up what he said in the Scriptures? I used to be like you. Taking self-inventory to see if I was still saved or worthy of it. By check every hour by hour, week by week, month by month to see if I was manintaining my worthiness and it was so exhausting, and miserable. Because I could never find any peace, assurance, refuge, hope, love. Only failure, condemnation, hatred, anger, sorrow, until I finally heard the Doctrines of Grace (Civic). Something you have replaced with self-worthy and self-righteousness. Well, good luck with that.

BTW a quick history lesson for you at no charge. The Reformation and the Reformers did not want to destroy the Catholic Church but to stop it's corruption and false teachings. Like indulgences that are still being practice by the RCC today. The Reformers wanted to Reform the Church back to the sources; namely the Word and Sacraments!

This is where you get the Reformed Faith, not destroy! Stop being blinded and start doing your homework and challenge everything with Scripture. So, don't take my word for it, do it for yourself, as every believer should or better yet, must do!​

 

[GeneZ]

BTW a quick history lesson for you at no charge. The Reformation and the Reformers did not want to destroy the Catholic Church but to stop it's corruption and false teachings. Like indulgences that are still being practice by the RCC today. The Reformers wanted to Reform the Church back to the sources; namely the Word and Sacraments!​

Martin Luther wanted to be a good Catholic. Originally he wanted the Catholic church to become great again, not destroy it.

Martin Luther was to the RCC in effect like what Donald Trump is now to corrupt socialistic liberalism.
Likewise Martin Luther was publicly lied about, even a failed attempt to assassinate him was tried

Nothing has changed. The lie still craves tyrannical control. The Truth is hated by the lie for exposing the lie for what it is.

grace and peace ............

 

[Ladodgers6]

Martin Luther wanted to be a good Catholic. Originally he wanted the Catholic church to become great again, not destroy it.

Martin Luther was to the RCC in effect like what Donald Trump is now to corrupt socialistic liberalism.
Likewise Martin Luther was publicly lied about, even a failed attempt to assassinate him was tried

Nothing has changed. The lie still craves tyrannical control. The Truth is hated by the lie for exposing the lie for what it is.

grace and peace ............

Gene you sound like a Lutheran

 

[GeneZ]

Gene you sound like a Lutheran

I am for Luther because of his approach to expounding Scripture. Same goes for Calvin..

The approach was a correct one. But, not always their conclusions.

Those who come after have been given the responsibility of correcting what needs to be, and to keep what was good.

Luther had the right approach ...and he had the guts to face down the tyrant who wanted to suppress truth.