The Temporal Order

[ReverendRV]

I find that the Logical Order of the Ordo Salutis is one of the things highly contested on Christian Forums. Hardly nobody argues the Temporal Order of our Justification. In this, we all agree. Why? There is no Logical Order in the Temporal Order. If there were, the Arguing surely would double...

But for the purpose of the Thread, I don't intend to ignore there are many facets to Salvation; such as Glorification, etc. I just want to talk about 'Salvation Proper', IE Justification; when we cross from Death to Life...

In the Temporal Order, every requirement for Justification such as Grace and Faith (and any other unmentioned requirement), are the 'first factor'. What do I mean? I mean that the Temporal Order has each requirement of Justification happening at the same time; IE in the Twinkling of an Eye. In a Timeless Order which includes more than one requirement to take place, every requirement is first. It's like saying Faith and Grace are both wearing the number 1 Jersey. The number Two doesn't exist, so there are no number 2 Jerseys on the Temporal Order Team. If the Logical Order and the Temporal Order were the same Legendary Olympic Basketball Dream team, the only difference would be that the Logical Order Team would have Jerseys 1,2,3,4,5; but the same Players on the Temporal Order Team would all be wearing number 1 Jerseys. The Logical Order takes shots one at a time; but the Temporal Order takes the Shot at the same time...

I describe the Temporal Order like the face of a Clock; with Hour, Minute and Second Hands. A Logical Order is like the Second Hand ticking 5 times in Linear Order. But the Temporal Order is like picking one of these Second Hands, let's say the first Second; there is no longer a Sequence of Time. Now stack Grace and Faith like Lego Blocks on the first Second hand; they're both first in Time, no matter how we Stack them. We could stack them Faith then Grace; and they both will still be first in Temporal Order. Continue to Stack; it wouldn't matter if you put Regeneration before you put Repentance in the Temporal Order, they All will be wearing the Number One Jersey...

As long as we have the Dream Team in our Starting Lineup of Justification, the Logical Order doesn't matter. But of course, the Logical Order always matters to God; so I have to pick a side. My point is, All Christians have these Lego Blocks in their personal Logical Order; even if the colors of the Blocks don't match in the Sequence of ticking Time. It's why we say Arminians and Calvinists are both in the Pale of Orthodoxy...

 

[civic]

So are we debating over nothing then since in the temporal order it really doesn't matter what comes first- faith, regeneration, grace etc ?

If that is the case I'm all in lol. I find the logical order becomes unfruitful most all of the time online.

 

[ReverendRV]

So are we debating over nothing then since in the temporal order it really doesn't matter what comes first- faith, regeneration, grace etc ?

If that is the case I'm all in lol. I find the logical order becomes unfruitful most all of the time online.

I suppose that's my point, and I'm just explaining myself. Though I may want to close out the Debate, I know better that the Argument will never cease...

And rightfully so. The Logical Order matters to God...

 

[ReverendRV]

So are we debating over nothing then since in the temporal order it really doesn't matter what comes first- faith, regeneration, grace etc ?

If that is the case I'm all in lol. I find the logical order becomes unfruitful most all of the time online.

I think this is what Sage Stage is like. Saint Paul even determined to only know Christ and him Crucified...

We'll see how it goes...

 

[civic]

I think this is what Sage Stage is like...

We'll see how it goes...

If you affirm the temporal order like we discussed then the logical order really shouldn't matter to us since salvation is of, by, for and through the Lord. He is the Savior and He does the saving. The only reason I even discuss the logical order is because for many it seems more important than the temporal.

 

[ReverendRV]

If you affirm the temporal order like we discussed then the logical order really shouldn't matter to us since salvation is of, by, for and through the Lord. He is the Savior and He does the saving. The only reason I even discuss the logical order is because for many it seems more important than the temporal.

It is very important. I try to have some sort of Logical Order in my Gospel Tracts. We're Saved by Grace through Faith, not by Works lest we boast...

In my Gospel Tract "The Salvation Equation", the Sequence is Grace + Faith - Works = Salvation. ~ Imagine if the Sequence were [-Works] + Faith + Grace = Salvation?

That sounds Wonky...

 

[civic]

It is very important. I try to have some sort of Logical Order in my Gospel Tracts. We're Saved by Grace through Faith, not by Works lest we boast...

Agreed we are so the major issue I see is when in the logical order regeneration takes place. That the major issue of debate imho. In the great scheme of things in the end it really doesn't matter when it takes place if both Arminians and Calvinists can be born again. Then it really becomes a non issue and not worth dividing over and causing fellowship issues. I've been on both sides of the issue and we can become very emotionally driven over it to prove our side we fall on. And like I said its not a salvific issue if both Arminians and Calvinists are saved and can both be born again. I think you and I would be in agreement there right ?

And as long as the posters can be respectful of the others side of the debate then we can agree to disagree and still be friends

 

[ReverendRV]

Agreed we are so the major issue I see is when in the logical order regeneration takes place. That the major issue of debate imho. In the great scheme of things in the end it really doesn't matter when it takes place if both Arminians and Calvinists can be born again. Then it really becomes a non issue and not worth dividing over and causing fellowship issues. I've been on both sides of the issue and we can become very emotionally driven over it to prove our side we fall on. And like I said its not a salvific issue if both Arminians and Calvinists are saved and can both be born again. I think you and I would be in agreement there right ?

So the Moral of the Story is; Unite and Conquer the World for Christ

 

[ReverendRV]

My "X Y" Axis view of the Temporal Order is why I stack the Washing of Regeneration, Faith, then the Renewing of the Spirit; on the same Second Hand in this Order of Lego Blocks. This way, Faith is both before the New Birth and after the New Birth in my Stacking the required Blocks on the Y Axis/Second Hand. The New Birth has a dual aspect; Washing and Renewing. I sandwich Faith in between both; thus being Born Again can be said to be of the Holy Spirit first Washing us, and then Faith Renewing our Dead spirit...

In Temporal Order: by stacking Washing, Faith and Renewal; Faith can be first no matter even if you fit it between two Slices of Regeneration...

 

[ReverendRV]

I find that the Logical Order of the Ordo Salutis is one of the things highly contested on Christian Forums. Hardly nobody argues the Temporal Order of our Justification. In this, we all agree. Why? There is no Logical Order in the Temporal Order. If there were, the Arguing surely would double...

But for the purpose of the Thread, I don't intend to ignore there are many facets to Salvation; such as Glorification, etc. I just want to talk about 'Salvation Proper', IE Justification; when we cross from Death to Life...

In the Temporal Order, every requirement for Justification such as Grace and Faith (and any other unmentioned requirement), are the 'first factor'. What do I mean? I mean that the Temporal Order has each requirement of Justification happening at the same time; IE in the Twinkling of an Eye. In a Timeless Order which includes more than one requirement to take place, every requirement is first. It's like saying Faith and Grace are both wearing the number 1 Jersey. The number Two doesn't exist, so there are no number 2 Jerseys on the Temporal Order Team. If the Logical Order and the Temporal Order were the same Legendary Olympic Basketball Dream team, the only difference would be that the Logical Order Team would have Jerseys 1,2,3,4,5; but the same Players on the Temporal Order Team would all be wearing number 1 Jerseys. The Logical Order takes shots one at a time; but the Temporal Order takes the Shot at the same time...

I describe the Temporal Order like the face of a Clock; with Hour, Minute and Second Hands. A Logical Order is like the Second Hand ticking 5 times in Linear Order. But the Temporal Order is like picking one of these Second Hands, let's say the first Second; there is no longer a Sequence of Time. Now stack Grace and Faith like Lego Blocks on the first Second hand; they're both first in Time, no matter how we Stack them. We could stack them Faith then Grace; and they both will still be first in Temporal Order. Continue to Stack; it wouldn't matter if you put Regeneration before you put Repentance in the Temporal Order, they All will be wearing the Number One Jersey...

As long as we have the Dream Team in our Starting Lineup of Justification, the Logical Order doesn't matter. But of course, the Logical Order always matters to God; so I have to pick a side. My point is, All Christians have these Lego Blocks in their personal Logical Order; even if the colors of the Blocks don't match in the Sequence of ticking Time. It's why we say Arminians and Calvinists are both in the Pale of Orthodoxy...

@civic