Born of Adam or in Adam: The Incarnate Son as a Descendent of David

[Odë:hgöd]

.
Born-again Christians are sons of God by means of adoption. (Rom 8:15, Gal 4:4-5,
Eph 1:4-5)

Christ is a son of God by means of heredity. (John 1:14, John 1:18. John 3:16,
John 3:18, Heb 1:4, 1John 4:9)
_

 

[Arial]

Born-again Christians are sons of God by means of adoption. (Rom 8:15, Gal 4:4-5,
Eph 1:4-5)

Yes. But when the reference is to Jesus it always declares his deity.

Christ is a son of God by means of heredity. (John 1:14, John 1:18. John 3:16,
John 3:18, Heb 1:4, 1John 4:9)

Christ is Son of God by means of his eternal existence in the Godhead. Jesus is the Son incarnate by means of his being gathered by the Holy Spirit.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. This refers to his incarnation.

18. No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. Jesus is declared to be God incarnate, who reveals and fulfills God's redemptive purpose.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. This declares his purpose of redemption through faith in the Savior.

18. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. This declares the result of Jesus work of providing forgiveness of sin and the result of believing (no condemnation) and the result of not believing (condemnation). It declares that there is only one way of forgiveness of sin and reconciliation to God. Faith----not the person and work of Jesus.

Heb 1:3-4 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. This declares his deity and the culmination of his work on earth.

1 John 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. This shows the motive of love God has for his covenant people and the love the Son has for us in agreeing to do the will of the Father and the unimaginable grace in the sacrifice of the Son to take a people from the kingdom of darkness where we are held captive, and bring into the kingdom of the Son.

Great scriptures! Thanks.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
It's not all that difficult to show Jesus' human origin began with the creation of Adam.

To begin with: the Bible says Jesus was on track for David's throne.

● Luke 1:32-33 . .The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will
reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.

Before any man can be considered for the throne, they must first be one of David's
paternal descendants; and that's on oath.

● Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn from it: "Of
the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"

The new testament verifies Jesus satisfies both the oath and the paternal requirement.

● Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. Therefore
being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of
his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

● Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according
to the flesh

The Greek word for "seed" is a mite ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual posterity
as well as biological progeny; but in David's case; seed refers to biological posterity
because Jesus was 1) the fruit of David's body and 2) of David's loins according to the
flesh.

So then, seeing as how Jesus was among David's biological descendants, then of
course Jesus was among Adam's biological descendants too because we all, including
David, descend from a common ancestor.

● Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all
the living.

● Acts 17:26 . . He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the
earth.
_

 

[Arial]

.
It's not all that difficult to show Jesus' human origin began with the creation of Adam.

To begin with: the Bible says Jesus was on track for David's throne.

● Luke 1:32-33 . .The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, and he will
reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end.

Before any man can be considered for the throne, they must first be one of David's
paternal descendants; and that's on oath.

● Ps 132:11 . .The Lord has sworn in truth unto David; and He will not turn from it: "Of
the fruit of your body will I set upon your throne"

The new testament verifies Jesus satisfies both the oath and the paternal requirement.

● Acts 2:29-30 . . Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David,
that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day. Therefore
being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of
his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

● Rom 1:1-3 . . Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according
to the flesh

The Greek word for "seed" is a mite ambiguous because it can refer to spiritual posterity
as well as biological progeny; but in David's case; seed refers to biological posterity
because Jesus was 1) the fruit of David's body and 2) of David's loins according to the
flesh.

So then, seeing as how Jesus was among David's biological descendants, then of
course Jesus was among Adam's biological descendants too because we all, including
David, descend from a common ancestor.

● Gen 3:20 . . Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all
the living.

● Acts 17:26 . . He made from one, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the
earth.
_

Would you please clarify what you are trying to say here. I ask, because its sounds to me, as though you are trying to disprove:
1. The deity of Christ.
2. Or that you are trying to prove that he was fathered by human parentage, rather than the Holy Spirit, and therefore born in Adam, just as sinners are.
3. You are not denying his deity or that he was fathered by the Holy Spirit, but that he was still born in Adam, just as sinners are.

In Scripture, when it says according to the flesh in regards to Jesus, it is either because Mary was a descendant of David, in which case there is a biological connection, but not through Joseph. Joseph was in the line of David and was Jesus' father according to the flesh, according to Jewish custom. He was truly his father through adoption by virtue of being a father to him, not biologically. That was a custom among Jews in that time period, and would be understood that way.

Though in the Jewish custom there was no formal adoption, inheritance within family lines was preserved this way. Joseph was not Jesus' biological father but is recognized as his legal father, as seen in Matthew's genealogies. Joseph naming Jesus and raising him would confer paternal responsibility and David's legal descent. It is called social adoption within Jewish custom.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

its sounds to me, as though you are trying to disprove: 1. The deity of Christ.

I would never do that.

Or that you are trying to prove that he was fathered by human parentage

I do not believe Joseph had a role in Jesus' conception.

rather than the Holy Spirit

The Holy Spirit's role wasn't biological, rather, it was miraculous.

and therefore born in Adam, just as sinners are.

Yes.

Joseph was truly his father through adoption

Joseph & Mary were both instructed give her baby the name Jesus. (Matt 1:21 & Luke 1:31) which they did.

● Matt 1:25 . . and Joseph called his name Jesus.

● Luke 2:21 . .On the eighth day, when it was time to circumcise him, he wa
named Jesus, the name the angel had given him before he had been conceived.

In ancient Israel, when a man stood with a woman to name her child, it was
assumed his. From then on: the Bible, the neighbors, and Jesus' mom knew Jesus
as Joseph's son. (Luke 2:27-28, Luke 2:41, Luke 2:48, & Luke 4:22)

FAQ: Why make an issue out of Jesus' association with Joseph?

REPLY: Because Jesus was ordained of God to inherit David's throne. (Luke 1:32-33)

Now the thing is: David's throne never passes down to his posterity via women; it
always passes down via the men in his line. Mary was able to give her son a
biological connection to David, but she couldn't give him the throne.

For another thing; the throne has to come down via David's son Solomon. (1Kings
1:13 & 1Chron 22:9-10) Joseph was related to Solomon. (Matt 1:6 and Matt 1:16)

Long story short: it was necessary for Joseph to adopt Mary's boy in order to place
the lad in Solomon's genealogy and thus validate him as an heir to the throne.

FAQ: Since when did the Jews begin placing men in positions of power by
adoption?

REPLY: Jacob was the first. He took possession of Joseph's two sons Manasseh &
Ephraim and elevated them to tribal heads equal in position to his eldest sons
Reuben and Simeon. (Gen 48:5-6)
_

 

[Arial]

I would never do that.

I do not believe Joseph had a role in Jesus' conception.

I didn't think you would, which is why I needed to have you clear that up. Thank you for doing so.

The Holy Spirit's role wasn't biological, rather, it was miraculous.

We only see it as miraculous because it was not the natural means of procreation. It was not at all miraculous with God. It was his plan even before creation.

Yes.

This yes is agreeing with my question as to whether or not you assert that Jesus was born in Adam as sinners are. Since our being born in Adam is what makes us a sinner---what would that make Jesus if he was born in Adam?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

This yes is agreeing with my question as to whether or not you assert that Jesus was born in
Adam as sinners are.

If the information I posted in No.6 is true, then here is just no getting out of
Jesus' biological association with Adam. In order to so, it would be necessary to
somehow dissolve David's biological association with Adam.

Since our being born in Adam is what makes us a sinner---what would that make Jesus if he was
born in Adam?

* Let's be very sure we know the difference between the original sin and the fallen
nature.

Our birth in Adam made us all, including Jesus, collateral damage in a sin we did
not commit. In other words: the forbidden fruit was one of Adam's personal sins,
not one of his posterity's personal sins (Rom 5:12-21) In point of fact, Jesus never
committed even one personal sin of his own to answer for. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21,
Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

The thing is: Adam is the source of the original sin, but he is not the source of the
fallen nature. That responsibility hangs on the Serpent, a.k.a. the Devil and Satan
(Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2) He has the power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to
tamper with the human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g.
Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, Eph 2:2.

It was likely a very simple task for the Holy Spirit to keep the Serpent's paws off baby
Jesus so he could come into the world the kind of man perfectly suited for God's purposes,
e.g. ransom, reconciliation, propitiation, mediation, and advocacy, etc.
_

 

[Arial]

If the information I posted in No.6 is true, then here is just no getting out of
Jesus' biological association with Adam. In order to so, it would be necessary to
somehow get out of David's biological association with Adam.

Jesus isn't biologically related to Joseph or any other man as biological father. Adam stood as the representative of all humans. He is the father of us all which is why we are all sinners. He became a sinner, and likewise all of his progeny. The woman, Eve, did not stand as a federal head of humanity. If sin passed to the child through the mother, then, you might have a point in saying that Jesus had a sin nature just like hers. But God is the one that relates that to the male. So you will have to take it up with him as to how and any other questions you might have. We can only go by what he shows us and tells us. There was a reason it was the biological father that was missing in our Savior, and not the biological mother. Just as there is a reason why Jesus is called the second Adam, and a reason why our Savior is a man and not a woman.

Any one who has a nature to sin---anyone who is born in Adam iow---is going to sin. A tiger cannot change its stripes. And anyone who has a sin nature is unholy simply because his nature is sinful. So time to rethink the assertion that Jesus was born in Adam.

Our birth in Adam made us all, including Jesus, collateral damage in a sin we did
not commit.

Jesus wasn't in Adam. That is why he was able to take the believer OUT of Adam and place them in himself instead. He did not just die on that cross to pay for individual personal sins, but to also reverse what Adam did. If Jesus had been in Adam, someone would have had to cleanse him of that. And there is no one.

The thing is: Adam is the source of the original sin, but he is not the source of the
fallen nature.

Adam is the source of our nature---he is our father.

I have no doubt it was a very simple task for the Holy Spirit to keep the Serpent's
paws off baby Jesus so he could come into the world the kind of man perfectly suited
for God's purposes, e.g. ransom, reconciliation, propitiation, mediation, and advocacy,
etc.

If Jesus was born with a sin nature---in Adam---he never would have qualified as our substitute.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

Adam is the source of our nature---he is our father.

Eve was fully constructed with material taken from Adam's body prior to his tasting
the forbidden fruit so it was impossible for him to pass the fallen nature to her by
means of heredity; yet soon after Adam tasted the forbidden fruit, she set about
covering her body's pelvic area with an apron.
_

 

[Eleanor]

Jesus isn't biologically related to Joseph or any other man as biological father. Adam stood as the representative of all humans. He is the father of us all which is why we are all sinners. He became a sinner, and likewise all of his progeny. The woman, Eve, did not stand as a federal head of humanity. If sin passed to the child through the mother, then, you might have a point in saying that Jesus had a sin nature just like hers. But God is the one that relates that to the male. So you will have to take it up with him as to how and any other questions you might have. We can only go by what he shows us and tells us. There was a reason it was the biological father that was missing in our Savior, and not the biological mother. Just as there is a reason why Jesus is called the second Adam, and a reason why our Savior is a man and not a woman.
Any one who has a nature to sin---anyone who is born in Adam iow---is going to sin. A tiger cannot change its stripes. And anyone who has a sin nature is unholy simply because his nature is sinful. So time to rethink the assertion that Jesus was born in Adam.

Not to mention Adam's sin is imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 14-16, 18-19) and is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteousness being imputed to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).
There is no way fallen man can escape being sinful.

Jesus wasn't in Adam. That is why he was able to take the believer OUT of Adam and place them in himself instead. He did not just die on that cross to pay for individual personal sins, but to also reverse what Adam did. If Jesus had been in Adam, someone would have had to cleanse him of that. And there is no one.

Adam is the source of our nature---he is our father.

If Jesus was born with a sin nature---in Adam---he never would have qualified as our substitute.

But----just out of curiosity and for the sake of the OP, what do you think about Packer's method of identifying the term "Son of God" as a declaration of his deity using John 1? What does that mean in how we interpret the scriptures that say if we confess with our mouth and believe in our heart that he is the Son of God? Does it rule out the possibility that any can be saved if they do not confess the Trinity and in this particular case, the deity of Jesus?

 

[Eleanor]

If the information I posted in No.6 is true, then here is just no getting out of
Jesus' biological association with Adam. In order to so, it would be necessary to
somehow dissolve David's biological association with Adam.

Jesus descended from David legally, making him a legal son of David and heir to the throne of Israel.
However, Jesus actually descended from God (Jn 1:1, 14) in the divine reckoning, making Jesus the actual divine Son of God.

* Let's be very sure we know the difference between the original sin and the fallen
nature.

Our birth in Adam made us all, including Jesus, collateral damage in a sin we did
not commit.

You do not know your NT if you are asserting that Jesus' nature was fallen.

In other words: the forbidden fruit was one of Adam's personal sins,

Eating of the forbidden fruit was the cause of Adam losing eternal life, corrupting his nature and being exiled from the Garden.
And that sin is imputed to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 14-16, 18-19), and is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputation of Christ's righreousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, 13, 9:30, 10:6, Gal 3:16, Php 3:9).
You are woefully misinformed regarding the imputation of Adam's sin as the pattern for the imputation of the last (second) Adam's (1 Co 15:45) righteousness.

not one of his posterity's personal sins (Rom 5:12-21)

Adam's sin was not the personal sin of his descendants.
Adam's sin is imputed to those of Adam (Ro 5:17), it being the pattern (Ro 5:14) for Christ's righteosness imputed to those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19

In point of fact, Jesus never
committed even one personal sin of his own to answer for. (John 8:29, 2Cor 5:21,
Heb 4:15, 1Pet 2:22)

The thing is: Adam is the source of the original sin, but he is not the source of the
fallen nature.

Contrare. . .

Adam's fallen nature was the result of Adam's sin, which nature we naturally inherit.

That responsibility hangs on the Serpent, a.k.a. the Devil and Satan
(Rev 12:9, Rev 20:2) He has the power of death (Heb 2:14)

He has the power of death only in a secondary manner; i.e., insofar as he induces people to sin and to come under God's penalty for sin, which is death (Eze 18:4, Ro 5:12, 6:23).
Satan has no "power of death" of his own.

and the ability to
tamper with the human body and the human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g.
Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, Eph 2:2.
It was likely a very simple task for the Holy Spirit to keep the Serpent's paws off baby
Jesus so he could come into the world the kind of man perfectly suited for God's purposes,
e.g. ransom, reconciliation, propitiation, mediation, and advocacy, etc.
_

And that man was both God (Jn 1:1, 14) and man. . .

You present way too much heresy here.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

Eve was fully constructed with material taken from Adam's body prior to his tasting the
forbidden fruit so it was impossible for him to pass the fallen nature to her by means of heredity;
yet soon after Adam tasted the forbidden fruit, she set about covering her body's pelvic area with
an apron.

FAQ: If so that Eve didn't obtain the fallen nature from Adam via heredity, then is it
possible she obtained it by means of her own eating? (Gen 3:6-7)

REPLY: Not so. According to Romans 5:12-21 it was God's decision that if sin and
death were to come into the world, they would do so by means of the actions of a solo
male working alone just as life and righteousness came into the world by means of the
actions of a solo male working alone.

FAQ: From whence did Adam obtain the fallen nature? Was it the chemistry of the fruit
that did it.

REPLY: Not the fruit. We can be sure of that because when Eve tasted it, nothing
happened. She went right on in the buff as shameless as always until Adam tasted it.

FAQ: If not the fruit, then from whence? I see no evidence in the text that God did it to
Adam.

REPLY: If we rule out the fruit, and rule out God, we're left with the one person of interest
who should've been a prime suspect all along.

● John 8:44 . .You are of your father the Devil, and the desires of your father you want
to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because
there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he
is a liar and the father of it.

● Eph 2:1-2 . . As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you
used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of
the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

● Heb 2:14 . . Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity
so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-- that is: the
Devil.

● 1John 3:8 . . He who does what is sinful is of the Devil, because the Devil has been
sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the
Devil's work.

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people . . . in the womb or out of the
womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on adults, but I'm
guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

* I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at diverting blame away from
himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe fathers propagate the
fallen nature when it's been the Serpent at work all along.

How he has managed to deceive so many people for so long a time I don't know, but
what's really ironic about it is that there are people behind pulpits, and chairing whole
Sunday school departments, helping him do it as unsuspecting accomplices; which
goes to show that if an idea is repeated often enough, widely enough, and loud enough
by people held in high enough esteem; pretty soon it's accepted by the masses as fact
without thought or question. (The Asch Conformity Phenomenon)

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong;
Gives it a superficial appearance of being right.
(Thomas Paine)
_

 

[John Bauer]

He has the power of death only in a secondary manner; i.e., insofar as he induces people to sin and to come under God's penalty for sin, which is death (Eze 18:4, Ro 5:12, 6:23).

Satan has no "power of death" of his own.

Exactly. It is Christ who has the keys of death and hades (Rev 1:18). To possess keys is to have sovereign authority. Christ declares that he now rules over both. He opens and none can shut; he shuts and none can open. This explicitly asserts his authority over death and the grave, which is a central theme in the rest of Revelation.

 

[CrowCross]

The thing is: Adam is the source of the original sin, but he is not the source of the
fallen nature. That responsibility hangs on the Serpent, a.k.a. the Devil and Satan

Also

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people . . . in the womb or out of the
womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate the Serpent's ability to work on adults, but I'm
guessing he gets to most everyone else in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & Ps 58:3)

Are you saying that when Satan is bound for 1000 years....there will be no one born with a fallen nature?

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

Are you saying that when Satan is bound for 1000 years....there will be no one born with a fallen
nature?

Eureka!

Thank you, thank you, Mr. CrowCross for introducing me to a concept that is easily
the best insight I've come across in literally decades of personal study, Sunday school
classes, sermons, books, and radio Bible teaching-- and it makes perfect sense. I
mean; the kingdom conditions described in the old testament just wouldn't be
possible if the Devil were allowed to continue tampering with human nature the way
he does now.
_

 

[John Bauer]

Wow.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
FAQ: If so that folks born in the kingdom age will come into the world minus the
fallen nature, then what's to be done about the pioneering folks who populate the
kingdom in its early years?

REPLY: The tribulation's Jewish survivors are in for a treat.

● Ezek 36:24-27 . . For I will take you from among the nations and gather you from
all the countries, and I will bring you to your land. And I will sprinkle clean water
upon you, and you will be clean; from all your impurities and from all your
abominations will I cleanse you.

. . And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you, and I will
take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put My spirit within you and bring it about that you will walk in My
statutes and you will keep My ordinances and do them.

God's scheme will not only remedy the people's lack of willingness to comply with
His wishes; but it will ensure that they never again get dominated and/or abused
by a foreign power, nor ever again evicted from their land.

● Ezek 36:28 . .Then will you dwell in the land that I gave your fathers, and you will
be a people to Me, and I will be to you as a God.

* The new heart and the new spirit will apparently be available to the tribulation's
Gentile survivors too; though must admit I have yet to locate scriptures explicitly
saying so.
_

 

[CrowCross]

Eureka!

Thank you, thank you, Mr. CrowCross for introducing me to a concept that is easily
the best insight I've come across in literally decades of personal study, Sunday school
classes, sermons, books, and radio Bible teaching-- and it makes perfect sense. I
mean; the kingdom conditions described in the old testament just wouldn't be
possible if the Devil were allowed to continue tampering with human nature the way
he does now.
_

When you say " tampering with human nature"...do you mean Satan deceives man playing on their fallen human nature or causes a fallen human nature in everyone?

Sorta asking the same question, will those being born in the 1,000 year reign have a fallen nature?

To be honest I never thought about it till now.

It sounds like something changes as Isaiah 11 seems to come into play.
6The wolf will live with the lamb,
and the leopard will lie down with the goat;
the calf and young lion and fatling will be together,a
and a little child will lead them.
7The cow will graze with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8The infant will play by the cobra’s den,
and the toddler will reach into the viper’s nest.
9They will neither harm nor destroy
on all My holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the sea is full of water.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

When you say " tampering with human nature"...do you mean Satan deceives man playing on
their fallen human nature or causes a fallen human nature in everyone?

Saying both.

will those being born in the 1,000 year reign have a fallen nature?

As I see it? No.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

It sounds like something changes as Isaiah 11 seems to come into play.

That passage suggests Messiah has plans to restore the earth to its Eden conditions
(minus the nudity; I hope) and show us what the world would've been like had Adam
not tasted the forbidden fruit.
_