that if you confess . . . .

[Carbon]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.

Arminians, is this what this passage is teaching? All we have to do is believe and confess? And we will get saved? How does this work?

Calvinists, what do you think?

 

[brightfame52]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.

Arminians, is this what this passage is teaching? All we have to do is believe and confess? And we will get saved? How does this work?

Calvinists, what do you think?

I believe doing those things believing and confessing are fruits and evidences of being in a saved state and not conditions to do to get saved.

A good article I studied back in the day on this:

Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9​

How shalt thou be saved? This is a great question of the scriptures. And the answer is given to us in Romans 10:9 which states, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This verse of scripture answers many of the questions that arise over the question of how can one know if a person is born again, saved, and going to heaven when they die.

According to the Apostle Paul, only those who believe, not with a head knowledge, not with a historic knowledge, but with a heart knowledge of Christ shall be saved. Contrast this with James 2:19 which states, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Many people in the world today believe there is one God. Among them are Muslims and Jews to name a few. Yet, we are told the devils also believe there is one God. No one would ever say that the devils are saved because of their belief in one God. Thus, the point of this scripture is it takes more than a mere acknowledgement of belief in God or Jesus' existence to qualify as saving belief.

The heart belief that Paul speaks of in Romans 10:9 is that which only comes with the new birth. John 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The reason a man must be born again is he must be given a spiritual nature that can see by faith the spiritual but physically invisible kingdom of God. And then in Romans 2:29 Paul states, "But he is a Jew (i.e. spiritual Jew - JT), which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart , in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." The spiritual circumcision of the heart is a spiritual circumcision performed by God and God alone. If it were in letter, as with ordinary circumcision the praise would be of men. But this circumcision cannot be performed by any man. Only God can touch the heart.

Furthermore, this passage cannot be construed to teach that this salvation is the result of any action on the part of the believer. Many people read Romans 10:9 and make the mistake of thinking that a person can appropriate the salvation by his own efforts. Whether one believes this salvation to be eternal salvation or time salvation it is not one a person can get. Paul says that if thou shalt believe in thine heart, thou shalt be saved not get saved. Thou-shalt-be-saved is translated from sodzo which is in the future tense, passive voice, indicative mood; Online Bible Greek Lexicon.

Because sodzo is in the future tense the salvation under consideration is a future salvation indicating it is referring to eternal salvation. This does not mean salvation does not take place until we enter into glory nor does it deny the antiquity of our salvation before the world began, 1 Tim 1:9. But rather one can not be said to posses it until he believes in Christ, and then he is declared to be saved in both this life and in eternal life.

The passive voice means the action (salvation) happens to the person. In other words, he is not active in gaining or achieving salvation. He believes because he is saved. He does not believe to get saved which would be the case if it was in the active voice. To put it another way, if sodzo was in the active voice, meaning the person must secure it, then the correct translation would be thou-shalt-get-saved. But this would contradict the scriptures which tell us salvation is by grace and not by works. Eph 2:8, Rom 11:6 Therefore, salvation is a state of being and belief is the evidence of salvation.

Finally, it is in the indicative mood. The indicative mood means that it is a statement of fact. Many who read statements such as Rom 10:9 think they see it in the imperative mood which would give a command (believe) in order to achieve a condition (salvation). If it was in the imperative mood, then one must-believe-in-order-to-get-saved would be a correct translation. However, the indicative mood tells us that if one believes, one is saved; a statement of fact.

How is one saved? By Jesus Christ and Him alone. How does one know if he or anyone else is saved? If one believes on Jesus Christ and Him alone. What kind of belief in Christ qualifies as saving belief? Belief from the heart. What does one believe about Christ that qualifies as saving belief? Belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. How does one know if one is saved? If one confesses with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believes in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, "thou shalt be saved."

Elder James Taylor Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9

 

[fastfredy0]

Premise: Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts”.

It is difficult to define what must be factually believed about who God is to be saved ... but apparently one must believe Jesus is:

God

• John 20:31 I write these things to you that you might believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that by believing you may have life in His name.
• 1 John 5:13 I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

1 John 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Savior is the belief He can forgive sins and make us righteous thus qualifying one for heaven

Lord is the one we trust; the effect of which is we obey, though imperfectly. (Lord also implying His resurrection as one does not serve a dead person.) Romans 10:9-10, every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit]

Christ Alone saves meaning that the belief that any work on your part independent of God’s causation nullifies salvation. Galatians 1:6-7, Galatians 5:2-6 (minority opinion)
(1 Corinthians 15:1-4 may indicate one must believe in the death and resurrection of Christ)


Roman 10:9-10 is the closest scripture I know of that defines what one must do to be saved, but it does not go into details.

 

[Arial]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.

Arminians, is this what this passage is teaching? All we have to do is believe and confess? And we will get saved? How does this work?

Calvinists, what do you think?

What it doesn't mean is simply a public acknowledgement which is how many A'ist take "confess" to mean and treat it that way in altar calls. As though the confession is what prompts Jesus to respond or creates the union. It is not a formula for salvation iow.

Paul intentionally pairs it with belief which makes it more than mere recitation. It signals embodied loyalty. What Paul is saying is that openly and publicly acknowledging Jesus as Lord in loyal allegiance and in agreement with the truth about who he is.

 

[Hobie]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.

Arminians, is this what this passage is teaching? All we have to do is believe and confess? And we will get saved? How does this work?

Calvinists, what do you think?

In your 'heart', which is not just that within the peripheral of knowledge, but deep within you...

 

[Carbon]

In your 'heart', which is not just that within the peripheral of knowledge, but deep within you...

Well, if you believe in your heart, isn't that proof that you are a believer and therefore already saved?

 

[makesends]

In your 'heart', which is not just that within the peripheral of knowledge, but deep within you...

In your 'heart' what? Or what in your 'heart'? What is it deep within you? See, it sounds like you think it depends on YOU whether or not you get saved, or even that it depends on the strength of your conviction and commitment to stay saved.

 

[Carbon]

In your 'heart' what? Or what in your 'heart'? What is it deep within you? See, it sounds like you think it depends on YOU whether or not you get saved, or even that it depends on the strength of your conviction and commitment to stay saved.

Well, in the Arminian system, it does depend on the person.

 

[Carbon]

I believe doing those things believing and confessing are fruits and evidences of being in a saved state and not conditions to do to get saved.

I agree.

 

[makesends]

Well, in the Arminian system, it does depend on the person.

I remember, probably 9th grade, or 10th, in my missionary kid school, telling another MK when he said he was not sure about his salvation, that if he was sincere, that was all that mattered. It stuck with me as soon as I had said it how stupid that actually was —How in the world can anybody be sincere the rest of their lives? I certainly wasn't. I still am full of selfish self-important ignorant self-centered fickle foolishness. And THAT doesn't even include the rebelliousness of the 'old man'.

For probably 20 years, maybe 25, since then, I could not reconcile the validity of faith that I generated, against the cost of salvation. Thank God for grace that I can't buy. I am at his mercy, and that is the best place to be.

 

[Soyeong]

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9.

Arminians, is this what this passage is teaching? All we have to do is believe and confess? And we will get saved? How does this work?

Calvinists, what do you think?

In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation. Moreover, in Romans 10:16 speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel, which called us to repent from our disobedience to the Law of Moses (Matthew 4:15-23, Titus 2:14).

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to experience driving it was completely given as a gift. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to have our lives directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of Moses. Christ graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of the Law of Moses is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of Moses in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as there result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in our hearts the Gospel that Jesus spent his life teaching and that God raised him from the dead is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20). In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

 

[makesends]

In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of Moses is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation. Moreover, in Romans 10:16 speaks against those who do not obey the Gospel, which called us to repent from our disobedience to the Law of Moses (Matthew 4:15-23, Titus 2:14).

You seem here to be mixing salvation with surface life. The law of Moses is not too difficult to obey (although nobody does), but in salvation the question of whether or not one can obey it, is not the issue, unless by "obey" we mean "submit". Romans 8:7 says the mind of the flesh cannot submit to God's law. Surface obedience, and in the case of Ninevah, not to mention in most of the Kings of Israel, surface repentance brings certain reliefs from destruction and brings peace and other blessings. But that is not salvation.

The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing to detract from the fact that the opportunity to experience driving it was completely given as a gift. Our salvation from sin would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while we continued to have our lives directed at being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of Moses. Christ graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of the Law of Moses is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being doers of it.

"...aspect..."? Can you be more vague? —You are straddling the fence here. Are you proposing semi-monergism? Nobody here denies the necessity of repentance and obedience. But repentance and obedience does not contribute to one's regeneration and salvation —i.e. one's "safe from sin's punishment, and freedom from its slavery". It does not make Heaven a future for anyone, though it has everything to do with the particular form and function of Heaven.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of Moses in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as there result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be doers of those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in our hearts the Gospel that Jesus spent his life teaching and that God raised him from the dead is by repenting and becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20). In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Law of Moses, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone.

"...the content of our gift of salvation..."? —What does that even mean? Are you trying to fit some action by the recipient of Salvation into the obtaining of salvation?

 

[Soyeong]

I believe doing those things believing and confessing are fruits and evidences of being in a saved state and not conditions to do to get saved.

A good article I studied back in the day on this:

Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9​

How shalt thou be saved? This is a great question of the scriptures. And the answer is given to us in Romans 10:9 which states, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." This verse of scripture answers many of the questions that arise over the question of how can one know if a person is born again, saved, and going to heaven when they die.

According to the Apostle Paul, only those who believe, not with a head knowledge, not with a historic knowledge, but with a heart knowledge of Christ shall be saved. Contrast this with James 2:19 which states, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble." Many people in the world today believe there is one God. Among them are Muslims and Jews to name a few. Yet, we are told the devils also believe there is one God. No one would ever say that the devils are saved because of their belief in one God. Thus, the point of this scripture is it takes more than a mere acknowledgement of belief in God or Jesus' existence to qualify as saving belief.

The heart belief that Paul speaks of in Romans 10:9 is that which only comes with the new birth. John 3:3 Jesus tells Nicodemus, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." The reason a man must be born again is he must be given a spiritual nature that can see by faith the spiritual but physically invisible kingdom of God. And then in Romans 2:29 Paul states, "But he is a Jew (i.e. spiritual Jew - JT), which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart , in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." The spiritual circumcision of the heart is a spiritual circumcision performed by God and God alone. If it were in letter, as with ordinary circumcision the praise would be of men. But this circumcision cannot be performed by any man. Only God can touch the heart.

A child of someone is a person who is experiencing embodying their character traits through their works, such as with John 8:39 where Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doers of the same works as him. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact likeness of His character (Hebrews 1:3), which he embodied through his works by setting a sinless example for us to follow of how to walk in obedience to the Law of Moses, so that is what it means for Jesus to be the Son of God and what it means for us to be born again as sons of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example. This is why those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of Moses are not children of God (1 John 3:4-10) and why Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of Moses (Romans 8:4-7).

In Romans 2:25-29, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to the Law of Moses and circumcision of the heart is a matter of the Spirit, which is in contrast with Acts 7:51-53 where those who have uncircumcised hearts resist the Spirit and do not obey the Law of Moses, so someone having a circumcised heart only refuses to them being a doer of the Law of Moses. God has not commanded anything that is not in accordance with walking in the Spirit, but rather God's character traits are the fruits of the Spirit and the Law of Moses is His instructions for how to embody His character traits, which is why the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey it (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and by the example that Christ set for us to follow of how to embody God's character traits can be described either as walking in the Spirit or as walking in obedience to the Law of Moses.

Furthermore, this passage cannot be construed to teach that this salvation is the result of any action on the part of the believer. Many people read Romans 10:9 and make the mistake of thinking that a person can appropriate the salvation by his own efforts. Whether one believes this salvation to be eternal salvation or time salvation it is not one a person can get. Paul says that if thou shalt believe in thine heart, thou shalt be saved not get saved. Thou-shalt-be-saved is translated from sodzo which is in the future tense, passive voice, indicative mood; Online Bible Greek Lexicon.

Because sodzo is in the future tense the salvation under consideration is a future salvation indicating it is referring to eternal salvation. This does not mean salvation does not take place until we enter into glory nor does it deny the antiquity of our salvation before the world began, 1 Tim 1:9. But rather one can not be said to posses it until he believes in Christ, and then he is declared to be saved in both this life and in eternal life.

The passive voice means the action (salvation) happens to the person. In other words, he is not active in gaining or achieving salvation. He believes because he is saved. He does not believe to get saved which would be the case if it was in the active voice. To put it another way, if sodzo was in the active voice, meaning the person must secure it, then the correct translation would be thou-shalt-get-saved. But this would contradict the scriptures which tell us salvation is by grace and not by works. Eph 2:8, Rom 11:6 Therefore, salvation is a state of being and belief is the evidence of salvation.

Finally, it is in the indicative mood. The indicative mood means that it is a statement of fact. Many who read statements such as Rom 10:9 think they see it in the imperative mood which would give a command (believe) in order to achieve a condition (salvation). If it was in the imperative mood, then one must-believe-in-order-to-get-saved would be a correct translation. However, the indicative mood tells us that if one believes, one is saved; a statement of fact.

How is one saved? By Jesus Christ and Him alone. How does one know if he or anyone else is saved? If one believes on Jesus Christ and Him alone. What kind of belief in Christ qualifies as saving belief? Belief from the heart. What does one believe about Christ that qualifies as saving belief? Belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. How does one know if one is saved? If one confesses with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and believes in his heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, "thou shalt be saved."

Elder James Taylor Thou Shalt Be Saved - An Exposition of Romans 10:9

Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace. For example, the content of a gift can be the opportunity to experience of doing something such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferraro, where we are intrinsically required to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing that detracts from the fact that the opportunity to experience driving it was completely given as a gift. Our salvation is this sort of gift where we are not required to have first obeyed the Law of Moses in order to get saved as the result, but rather need to be a doer of the Law of Moses because that is what is intrinsically required to experience to gift of salvation happening to us.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can become saved as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God causing us to experience being doers of good works is nevertheless a central part of the content of His gift of salvation. The Bible repeatedly connects our faith with our works such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who have faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandant, so the one is believes in Jesus by being a doer of God's commandments is intrinsically being saved from not being a doer of them as a statement of fact. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross is by becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

 

[Soyeong]

You seem here to be mixing salvation with surface life. The law of Moses is not too difficult to obey (although nobody does), but in salvation the question of whether or not one can obey it, is not the issue, unless by "obey" we mean "submit". Romans 8:7 says the mind of the flesh cannot submit to God's law. Surface obedience, and in the case of Ninevah, not to mention in most of the Kings of Israel, surface repentance brings certain reliefs from destruction and brings peace and other blessings. But that is not salvation.

"...aspect..."? Can you be more vague? —You are straddling the fence here. Are you proposing semi-monergism? Nobody here denies the necessity of repentance and obedience. But repentance and obedience does not contribute to one's regeneration and salvation —i.e. one's "safe from sin's punishment, and freedom from its slavery". It does not make Heaven a future for anyone, though it has everything to do with the particular form and function of Heaven.

"...the content of our gift of salvation..."? —What does that even mean? Are you trying to fit some action by the recipient of Salvation into the obtaining of salvation?

Our salvation is a gift, so in order to understand the way to become saved we need to first understand what exactly is the content of that gift. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness but also in order to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the content of our gift of salvation is not just being saved from the penalty of our sin, but also includes Jesus saving from continuing to be doers of sin by graciously teaching us to experience being doers of good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so there is a direct connection between our salvation is being doers of the Law of Moses. We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of contributing anything towards earning our salvation in the first place, so that is not the connection, but rather it was given in order to graciously teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of salvation. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was not speaking about the way to contribute something towards earning eternal life, but rather he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of eternal life.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to work our way there, but because that is the way to experience knowing Jesus.

Please define semi-monergism.

 

[makesends]

Our salvation is a gift, so in order to understand the way to become saved we need to first understand what exactly is the content of that gift. In Titus 2:14, Jesus did not just given himself to redeem us from all lawlessness but also in order to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so the content of our gift of salvation is not just being saved from the penalty of our sin, but also includes Jesus saving from continuing to be doers of sin by graciously teaching us to experience being doers of good works in obedience to the Law of Moses (Acts 21:20).

Sophistry. First, we don't even need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved. If becoming saved depended on our understanding, none could be saved. Only God himself has that kind of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Becoming saved is not by our decision upon receiving sufficient information.

Second, the "'content' of our gift of salvation" is a made up characterization. Your earlier narrative about driving a Ferrari is not a suitable analogy.

Third, Jesus saves us from being "doers of sin", by removing sin's dominion over us. Not by convincing or teaching us to do it on our own.

Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Law of Moses that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so there is a direct connection between our salvation is being doers of the Law of Moses. We can't earn our salvation even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of Moses because it was never given as a way of contributing anything towards earning our salvation in the first place, so that is not the connection, but rather it was given in order to graciously teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of salvation. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was not speaking about the way to contribute something towards earning eternal life, but rather he was speaking about what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of eternal life.

The Law of Moses was not "given in order to teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of salvation." The Law teaches us our need for Christ. We don't "experience the gift". What we experience is irrelevant to the reality of the gift.

In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to be workers of lawfulness is not in order to be good enough to work our way there, but because that is the way to experience knowing Jesus.

(I'll assume you meant, "so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to [not] be workers of lawfulness")

But, whatever, where do you come up with this back way look at what Scripture states head-on? It doesn't take rearranging concepts to understand that God does not consult us nor ask our permission to rebirth us by his Spirit. We are saved by grace—not by some kind of complicated logistics where human will is shoehorned into the works. Read the beginning of John 3 again. We enter the Kingdom of God by being born from above. Not by deciding to not be workers of lawlessness.

Please define semi-monergism.

Monergism, as opposed to Synergism:

Monergism—we are saved by Grace alone, by the work of God alone.

Synergism—we are saved by Grace alone, that is, by us cooperating with, assisting with, completing God's work. That is, the one thing improves on the other.

Semi-Monergism— a word I made up to describe a fence-walking attempt to sound like Monergism but redefining grace, still insisting on self-determinism.

 

[Soyeong]

Sophistry.

How so? It is straightforwardly based on both of the things that Titus 2:14 says that Jesus gave himself to accomplish.

First, we don't even need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved. If becoming saved depended on our understanding, none could be saved. Only God himself has that kind of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Becoming saved is not by our decision upon receiving sufficient information.

I agree that we do not need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved and did not suggest otherwise, but we do need to understand what the gift of becoming saved entails in order to understand the way to become saved.

Second, the "'content' of our gift of salvation" is a made up characterization.

When someone received the gift of salvation we straightforwardly need to understand what exactly that means. What exactly are we being saved from?

Your earlier narrative about driving a Ferrari is not a suitable analogy.

Grace is a gift and gifts are incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace, such as what my example effectively showed with the gift of experiencing driving a Ferrari.

Third, Jesus saves us from being "doers of sin", by removing sin's dominion over us. Not by convincing or teaching us to do it on our own.

Jesus removing sin's dominion over us is certainly part of our gift of salvation, but someone would not be saved from sin is they continued to be a doer sin, so being saved from being a doer of sin is necessarily also part of our gift of salvation. Again, Titus 2:11-13 and Psalms 119:29-30 describe our salvation as being trained by grace to obey the Law of God.

The Law of Moses was not "given in order to teach us what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of salvation." The Law teaches us our need for Christ. We don't "experience the gift". What we experience is irrelevant to the reality of the gift.

While it is true that the Law of God teaches us our need Christ, it also teaches us the way that he is giving us His gift of salvation. In John 17:3. the experience of knowing God and Jesus is the gift of eternal life, so the experience is part of the gift.

(I'll assume you meant, "so the reason why our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to [not] be workers of lawfulness")

Jesus saying that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them means that our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness because that is the way to know Jesus.

But, whatever, where do you come up with this back way look at what Scripture states head-on? It doesn't take rearranging concepts to understand that God does not consult us nor ask our permission to rebirth us by his Spirit. We are saved by grace—not by some kind of complicated logistics where human will is shoehorned into the works. Read the beginning of John 3 again. We enter the Kingdom of God by being born from above. Not by deciding to not be workers of lawlessness.

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works, which intrinsically requires our participation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of God is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). So I'm basing my view on what Scripture states, not rearranging concepts.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not born again, and in Romans 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
First, we don't even need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved. If becoming saved depended on our understanding, none could be saved. Only God himself has that kind of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Becoming saved is not by our decision upon receiving sufficient information.

I agree that we do not need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved and did not suggest otherwise, but we do need to understand what the gift of becoming saved entails in order to understand the way to become saved.

Why do we need to understand the way to become saved? For what purpose? That's not a rhetorical question. I agree we learn about God by whatever truth we learn, but what are YOU suggesting here? Still sounds like salvation depending on us.

When someone received the gift of salvation we straightforwardly need to understand what exactly that means. What exactly are we being saved from?

Why do you say we NEED to understand exactly what that means? Are you still suggesting that given the opportunity to drive the Ferrari, we need to learn how to drive?

Grace is a gift and gifts are incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace, such as what my example effectively showed with the gift of experiencing driving a Ferrari.

Not according to Ephesians 2:8,9. Grace and works are not compatible principles. We have no way of operating the Ferrari. Look again at Romans 8:7,8 "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

Jesus removing sin's dominion over us is certainly part of our gift of salvation, but someone would not be saved from sin is they continued to be a doer sin, so being saved from being a doer of sin is necessarily also part of our gift of salvation. Again, Titus 2:11-13 and Psalms 119:29-30 describe our salvation as being trained by grace to obey the Law of God.

While it is true that the Law of God teaches us our need Christ, it also teaches us the way that he is giving us His gift of salvation. In John 17:3. the experience of knowing God and Jesus is the gift of eternal life, so the experience is part of the gift.

Jesus saying that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the Kingdom of Heaven in contrast with saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them means that our entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven requires us to choose to do the will of the Father by being workers of lawfulness because that is the way to know Jesus

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do those works, which intrinsically requires our participation. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the Law of God is to graciously teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3). So I'm basing my view on what Scripture states, not rearranging concepts.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are not born again, and in Romans 8:4-14, Paul contrasted those who are born of the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

You're just repeating yourself.

 

[Soyeong]

makesends said:
First, we don't even need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved. If becoming saved depended on our understanding, none could be saved. Only God himself has that kind of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Becoming saved is not by our decision upon receiving sufficient information.

Why do we need to understand the way to become saved? For what purpose? That's not a rhetorical question. I agree we learn about God by whatever truth we learn, but what are YOU suggesting here? Still sounds like salvation depending on us.

Why do you say we NEED to understand exactly what that means? Are you still suggesting that given the opportunity to drive the Ferrari, we need to learn how to drive?

No one needs to participate in this forum, but the point of this thread is to discuss the means of salvation in connection with Romans 10:9 and if someone wants to be saved or to teach others how to be saved, then it can be helpful to know the way to become saved.

Not according to Ephesians 2:8,9. Grace and works are not compatible principles. We have no way of operating the Ferrari. Look again at Romans 8:7,8 "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

God's righteousness is perfectly compatible with His graciousness, especially considering that there are many verses where our salvation involves God being gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Titus 2:11-13). In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us into doers of good works is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation, which is perfectly in accordance with what I said here:

"Grace is a gift and gifts are incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace, such as what my example effectively showed with the gift of experiencing driving a Ferrari."

The point of the example was to illustrate how a gift can require works in order to experience it to show how grace and be compatible with works. Likewise, a professional musician could teach someone lessons for how to play and instrument as a free gift to them, which would intrinsically require their participation in order to experience the content of the gift, but where doing that work would contribute nothing towards earning their lessons and the result, so that is another example of grace can be compatible with works.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:


makesends said:
First, we don't even need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved. If becoming saved depended on our understanding, none could be saved. Only God himself has that kind of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Becoming saved is not by our decision upon receiving sufficient information.

Why do we need to understand the way to become saved? For what purpose? That's not a rhetorical question. I agree we learn about God by whatever truth we learn, but what are YOU suggesting here? Still sounds like salvation depending on us.

Why do you say we NEED to understand exactly what that means? Are you still suggesting that given the opportunity to drive the Ferrari, we need to learn how to drive?

No one needs to participate in this forum, but the point of this thread is to discuss the means of salvation in connection with Romans 10:9 and if someone wants to be saved or to teach others how to be saved, then it can be helpful to know the way to become saved.

Well, no, that's not what the OP asks. It doesn't mention "someone want[ing] to be saved [n]or teach[ing] anyone how...to become saved."

makesends said:
Not according to Ephesians 2:8,9. Grace and works are not compatible principles. We have no way of operating the Ferrari. Look again at Romans 8:7,8 "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

God's righteousness is perfectly compatible with His graciousness, especially considering that there are many verses where our salvation involves God being gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Titus 2:11-13). In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denied that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us into doers of good works is nevertheless a central part of His gift of salvation, which is perfectly in accordance with what I said here:

"Grace is a gift and gifts are incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn a wage (Romans 11:6), however, works can be done for other reasons that are compatible with grace, such as what my example effectively showed with the gift of experiencing driving a Ferrari."

The point of the example was to illustrate how a gift can require works in order to experience it to show how grace and be compatible with works. Likewise, a professional musician could teach someone lessons for how to play and instrument as a free gift to them, which would intrinsically require their participation in order to experience the content of the gift, but where doing that work would contribute nothing towards earning their lessons and the result, so that is another example of grace can be compatible with works.

Did I say that God's righteousness is incompatible with his graciousness? I didn't even say that God does not graciously make us into doers of good works. I said that grace is not compatible with works. They are mutually two exclusively different concepts. God's grace to us categorically excludes our works to accomplish salvation. THAT is what the OP is asking about.

You are now claiming that works are necessary in order to experience it. Before you were saying that works (eg, the driving the Ferrari) is necessary to activate (my word) the gracious gift. Fence riding. The OP is not asking about our experience of it.

 

[Soyeong]

makesends said:


makesends said:
First, we don't even need to understand the way to become saved in order to become saved. If becoming saved depended on our understanding, none could be saved. Only God himself has that kind of wisdom, knowledge and understanding. Becoming saved is not by our decision upon receiving sufficient information.

Why do we need to understand the way to become saved? For what purpose? That's not a rhetorical question. I agree we learn about God by whatever truth we learn, but what are YOU suggesting here? Still sounds like salvation depending on us.

Why do you say we NEED to understand exactly what that means? Are you still suggesting that given the opportunity to drive the Ferrari, we need to learn how to drive?

Well, no, that's not what the OP asks. It doesn't mention "someone want[ing] to be saved [n]or teach[ing] anyone how...to become saved."

I said that the point of this thread is to discuss the means of salvation in connection with Romans 10:9 and then spoke in regard to reasons why someone might want to know that.

makesends said:
Not according to Ephesians 2:8,9. Grace and works are not compatible principles. We have no way of operating the Ferrari. Look again at Romans 8:7,8 "The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God."

Did I say that God's righteousness is incompatible with his graciousness? I didn't even say that God does not graciously make us into doers of good works. I said that grace is not compatible with works. They are mutually two exclusively different concepts. God's grace to us categorically excludes our works to accomplish salvation. THAT is what the OP is asking about.

You are now claiming that works are necessary in order to experience it. Before you were saying that works (eg, the driving the Ferrari) is necessary to activate (my word) the gracious gift. Fence riding. The OP is not asking about our experience of it.

If grace is incompatible with works, then God's graciousness is also incompatible with His righteousness and if His graciousness is compatible with His righteousness, then grace is also compatible with works. Grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done in order to earn our salvation as the result, however, our salvation can still require us to choose to be doers of good works for reasons other than in order to earn it as the result, which are compatible with grace, such as in order to experience it, which is in accordance with verses that I've quoted, so it is not fence riding. I have not changed my position, but rather I am trying to help you to understand it. I didn't claim that the OP was asking about how to experience it.

In the example where the gift is the opportunity to get to experience driving a Ferrari, it does not extrinsically require someone to do the work of driving it in order to earn the opportunity to experience driving it as the result, but it does intrinsically require someone to do the work of driving it in order to have the experience of driving it. My position has been that part of our gift of salvation is this kind of gift insofar as the opportunity to get to experience of being a doer of the Law of Moses is intrinsically part of the gift of Jesus saving us from not being a doer of it. The Law of Moses was given for our good (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so it is a gift that we have the benefit of getting to experience and that is how God graciously teaching us to have that experience is intrinsically how He giving us His gift of saving us from not being a doer of it.