Spirit-filled churches, but what spirit?

[Hobie]

I had someone who ask me why he should go to a church that followed the scriptures when he was already going to a 'spirit-filled church' and thus was fine. But after seeing what can happen with Oral Roberts back in the day, and the Word of Faith preachers Kenneth Hagin , Kenneth Copeland, and Benny Hinn, etc.. and the movement behind it. I have to say, test the spirit. Many Word of Faith teachers use phrases such as "little gods" to describe believers. Kenneth Hagin wrote that God had created humans "in the same class of being that he is himself,"and reasoned that if humans are made in God's image, they are "in God's class", and thereby 'gods.

Here is more on what I came across...
'Although individual teachings range from completely heretical to completely ridiculous, what follows is the basic theology most Word of Faith teachers align themselves with.

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God’s sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: it claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods.'... https://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

I am hearing a lot about these 'spirit-filled' churches but they seem to be leaving out the Bible, and just following whatever they think the 'spirit' is telling them. Scripture is set aside and they are being led, but by what?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God’s sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

The REAL problem with "Word of Faith" is there's no "FAITH" anywhere in sight, Just Intellectual assent, and religious methodology (if you do THIS, then He'll do that).

Of course that doesn't work, and some folks have paid dearly (with their lives in some cases where medical issues are involved) to find that out.

However Mark 11:23,24 is still in the bible - AND the conditions under which it operates.

I always liked Hagan's three scripture foundation:
What FAITH IS Heb 11:1
Where FAITH comes from Rom 10:17
How Faith is applied Mark 11:23,24

 

[Arial]

I always liked Hagan's three scripture foundation:
What FAITH IS Heb 11:1
Where FAITH comes from Rom 10:17
How Faith is applied Mark 11:23,24

The problem with that is that Hagan does not mean by faith the same thing that the Bible means. Almost all uses of "faith" in Scripture refer to saving faith. That is, a trust in the person and work of Jesus. With Hagan and other Word of Faith preachers it is a mental exercise of not doubting what they say will come to pass will come to pass. And, as @Hobie said, that this is a force that acts upon God to which God is forced to honor.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

The problem with that is that Hagan does not mean by faith the same thing that the Bible means.

I see no evidence of that claim.

Almost all uses of "faith" in Scripture refer to saving faith.

Which is unimportant. FAITH is FAITH and operates according to Heb 11:1. And there's Gal 3:5 - "Hearing of FAITH". If what a person CALLS FAITH has no "substance", and is "evidence" of nothing, then it's nothing more than intellectual assent to a "Theology". YOU have to hold onto a "Belief", but Biblical FAITH holds on to you.

With Hagan and other Word of Faith preachers it is a mental exercise of not doubting what they say will come to pass will come to pass.

Actually HAGAN (senior) did NOT believe what you claim he did. There's no question that many "Word of Faith" teachers do believe the "mental exercise" foolishness, and there's no actual FAITH anywhere in sight.

Hobart freeman's "Body count" among his "faithful" up in Warsaw Indiana was well over 100 by the time HE died of a completely treatable leg infection that God had "healed him of".

But as Dad Hagan used to say: "I don't mind my Detractors, but my "Imitators" are the ones that really scare me".

 

[Arial]

I see no evidence of that claim.

I would not have said what I said if I had not seen evidence. Many of Hagans writings were direct plaguries of E.W. Kenyon, who was steeped in the metaphysical religions of his day, including Christian Science, and took his teachings from them. If you don't believe me, read D.R. McConnell's book A Different Gospel. He is an A'ist not a Calvinist, and a charismatic.

Which is unimportant. FAITH is FAITH and operates according to Heb 11:1. And there's Gal 3:5 - "Hearing of FAITH". If what a person CALLS FAITH has no "substance", and is "evidence" of nothing, then it's nothing more than intellectual assent to a "Theology". YOU have to hold onto a "Belief", but Biblical FAITH holds on to you.

It is of the utmost importance. But I see you did not comprehend what I said. There was actually nothing to argue about in what I said.

Actually HAGAN (senior) did NOT believe what you claim he did.

Yes he did. Maybe you got confused because he uses the right words but changes their meanings from the biblical meanings.

 

[STAND]

I had someone who ask me why he should go to a church that followed the scriptures when he was already going to a 'spirit-filled church' and thus was fine. But after seeing what can happen with Oral Roberts back in the day, and the Word of Faith preachers Kenneth Hagin , Kenneth Copeland, and Benny Hinn, etc.. and the movement behind it. I have to say, test the spirit. Many Word of Faith teachers use phrases such as "little gods" to describe believers. Kenneth Hagin wrote that God had created humans "in the same class of being that he is himself,"and reasoned that if humans are made in God's image, they are "in God's class", and thereby 'gods.

Here is more on what I came across...
'Although individual teachings range from completely heretical to completely ridiculous, what follows is the basic theology most Word of Faith teachers align themselves with.

At the heart of the Word of Faith movement is the belief in the "force of faith." It is believed words can be used to manipulate the faith-force, and thus actually create what they believe Scripture promises (health and wealth). Laws supposedly governing the faith-force are said to operate independently of God’s sovereign will and that God Himself is subject to these laws. This is nothing short of idolatry, turning our faith—and by extension ourselves—into god.

From here, its theology just strays further and further from Scripture: it claims that God created human beings in His literal, physical image as little gods.'... https://www.gotquestions.org/Word-Faith.html

I am hearing a lot about these 'spirit-filled' churches but they seem to be leaving out the Bible, and just following whatever they think the 'spirit' is telling them. Scripture is set aside and they are being led, but by what?

Would this be a good thread to discuss the Pentecostal church and speaking in tongues?

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

(Maybe this should be a new thread?)

 

[Carbon]

Would this be a good thread to discuss the Pentecostal church and speaking in tongues?

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

(Maybe this should be a new thread?)

Personally, I do not believe tongues exist today. Feel free to start a thread on tongues.

 

[Arial]

Personally, I do not believe tongues exist today. Feel free to start a thread on tongues.

I have started work on one and will get it finished and posted as soon as time permits. I want it to be thorough and accurate and well supported, so it will not be a hasty work.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

With Hagan and other Word of Faith preachers it is a mental exercise of not doubting what they say will come to pass will come to pass.

I certainly wouldn't argue that "Word of Faith" (popular version) is word games, and mental exercises. It should actuall be "WOP" (Word of Presumption), since I am a Wop, I know the difference!!!

However, I've listened to enough Hagan to know that he didn't teach that at all (which is why he said he "FEARED HIS IMITATORS"). No argument that Hagan's message was largely based on EW Kenyon. Hagan, however, knew the difference between FAITH, and PRESUMPTION, which is what popular WOF teaching was based on.

Mark 11:22 is describing BIBLICAL FAITH. and when a person has BIBLICAL FAITH the effect is that (since Biblical faith has "Substance"), there isn't any "DOUBT". So what Mark 11 gives is an "Evaluation opportunity". If what you call "FAITH" has DOUBT, then it's not Biblical Faith. Was there DOUBT in the FAITH that led to you being Born again??? Or were you moving on God's WORD TO YOU from Conviction of SIN??

Remember the phrase "Believe in you HEART" is used, not just "believe" (intellectual assent). There's a difference between "Intellectual assent", and the "belief of FAITH" which comes only from God's WORD to you. (Rom 10:17)

And, as @Hobie said, that this is a force that acts upon God to which God is forced to honor.

That's Popular WOF, which is nothing but horse manure. But whether you like it or not, Mark 11:22-24 is still in the Bible.

 

[Mr GLee]

I see no evidence of that claim.

Which is unimportant. FAITH is FAITH and operates according to Heb 11:1. And there's Gal 3:5 - "Hearing of FAITH". If what a person CALLS FAITH has no "substance", and is "evidence" of nothing, then it's nothing more than intellectual assent to a "Theology". YOU have to hold onto a "Belief", but Biblical FAITH holds on to you.

Actually HAGAN (senior) did NOT believe what you claim he did. There's no question that many "Word of Faith" teachers do believe the "mental exercise" foolishness, and there's no actual FAITH anywhere in sight.

Hobart freeman's "Body count" among his "faithful" up in Warsaw Indiana was well over 100 by the time HE died of a completely treatable leg infection that God had "healed him of".

But as Dad Hagan used to say: "I don't mind my Detractors, but my "Imitators" are the ones that really scare me".

The faith is of God as a work of God , his understanding working in us according to the law of faith The law "Let there be" and the testimony what the eyes see :"it was God alone good"

The word faith 98 times throughout the bible represents the power of God to be saved. Let there be salvation and it was Almighty God good

Numbers 12:7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. . . Gods faith as labor of love working in Moses to both hear and do the work of Christ;s faith Not of his own self reconked as no faith. not little. . . none that could please him who is Faithful

Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand (all )generations;

2 Samuel 20:19 I am one of them that are peaceable and faithful in Israel: thou seekest to destroy a city and a mother in Israel: why wilt thou swallow up the inheritance of the Lord

Again Christ faith working in dying mankind .by it working in us we faithless can be faithfull as a result of that labor of love

We can love him because he first loved us as a work of his faithfulness, No faith coming from him, no faith that we could offer towards him ..

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I have started work on one and will get it finished and posted as soon as time permits. I want it to be thorough and accurate and well supported, so it will not be a hasty work.

Since most cessationist teaching depends on the definition of "That which is Perfect" (1 Cor 13:10) you might want to address that aspect.

 

[Hobie]

The REAL problem with "Word of Faith" is there's no "FAITH" anywhere in sight, Just Intellectual assent, and religious methodology (if you do THIS, then He'll do that).

Of course that doesn't work, and some folks have paid dearly (with their lives in some cases where medical issues are involved) to find that out.

However Mark 11:23,24 is still in the bible - AND the conditions under which it operates.

I always liked Hagan's three scripture foundation:
What FAITH IS Heb 11:1
Where FAITH comes from Rom 10:17
How Faith is applied Mark 11:23,24

True faith is the issue as that is what Christ was talking about not just saying words as we see in His declarations...

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Luke 17:6
And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

 

[Mr GLee]

Would this be a good thread to discuss the Pentecostal church and speaking in tongues?

I attended a Pentecostal church for a bit and really didn't know what to make of the whole 'Baptism of the Holy Spirit' speaking in tongues phenomenon.

I was patient with it all, didn't really convert to the 'exuberant praise' thing, and I did some Bible studies with one of the Bible teachers there and honestly came away befuddled with it all really.

Have studied, researched, prayed and reflected for a good while, but I just don't know where I stand on the whole 'tongues' thing. I believe everything the Bible says about it, but I have real problems with what we are seeing today in how it is manifested and who is manifesting it.

There are technically two different types of 'tongues', glossolalia (language of angels - can't be readily translated by humans unless a special gift of translation exists) and xenolalia (a known human language that is unfamiliar/untaught to the person speaking it - but very easily recognized by most as a legit human language).

My biggest issue? The only type we ever see anybody performing is glossolalia, the type that, conveniently, can't be translated by the average human, that always sounds like 'gibberish' and often has repeating sounds (words?), chants, etc.

What say you?

Should all Christians hope and pray for this experience and is it necessary for Salvation, or as an undeniable sign of having received the Holy Spirit?

(Maybe this should be a new thread?)

The whole idea of sign gifts, some call spiritual gifts (Charismatic )is of the father of lies. There is nothing we can do outwardly that proves something is going on inwardly. It includes water baptism a ceremonial law as a shadow. I would think the sign of our new birth would be enough a desire and power to please God as it is written (sola scriptura)

Spiritual is always invisible . Its the unbelievers that sought after a sign the temporal things seen before they would commit faith denying as it is written by which we can believe the tongue of God's prophecy

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Tongues is prophecy the spiritual unseen things of God that works in us .. .to both will and empower to do it to his good pleasure

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law (Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying(Gods tongue) serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The law or foundation of the doctrine spoken of in 1 Corinthian 14:21 is found below in Isaiah 28 .

The faithless Jew that sought after a sign, wanted nothing to do with prophecy the word of God tongue Like somehow or other they out grew the need for sola scriptura .

Mocking the word of God the sign and wonders seekers were given a sign from God to help us distinguish where we can fellowship and who needs the gospel . . in return mocking them a sign against those who refuse to believe the tongue of God

Isaiah 28:9-13 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:

Hiding the understanding giving them baby talk like below senseless sounds without understanding.

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham.” So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages (understandings ) to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sound to them:
“Saw lasaw saw lasaw. Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw. Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

The signs even today are being fulfilled in anyone that falls backward slain in the Spirit (God mocking them) fall back to indicate the judgment of God

Again no such thing as sign gifts.(Charismatic) Spiritual unseen gifts yes. Its a evil unredeemed generation that does seek a sign rather than prophecy the tongue of God

 

[STAND]

The whole idea of sign gifts, some call spiritual gifts (Charismatic )is of the father of lies. There is nothing we can do outwardly that proves something is going on inwardly. It includes water baptism a ceremonial law as a shadow. I would think the sign of our new birth would be enough a desire and power to please God as it is written (sola scriptura)

Spiritual is always invisible . Its the unbelievers that sought after a sign the temporal things seen before they would commit faith denying as it is written by which we can believe the tongue of God's prophecy

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Tongues is prophecy the spiritual unseen things of God that works in us .. .to both will and empower to do it to his good pleasure

1 Corinthians 14:21 In the law (Isaiah 28) it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying(Gods tongue) serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

The law or foundation of the doctrine spoken of in 1 Corinthian 14:21 is found below in Isaiah 28 .

The faithless Jew that sought after a sign, wanted nothing to do with prophecy the word of God tongue Like somehow or other they out grew the need for sola scriptura .

Mocking the word of God the sign and wonders seekers were given a sign from God to help us distinguish where we can fellowship and who needs the gospel . . in return mocking them a sign against those who refuse to believe the tongue of God

Isaiah 28:9-13 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:

Hiding the understanding giving them baby talk like below senseless sounds without understanding.

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw Qaw laqaw qaw laqawZe’er sham ze’er sham.” So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages (understandings ) to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sound to them:
“Saw lasaw saw lasaw. Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw. Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

The signs even today are being fulfilled in anyone that falls backward slain in the Spirit (God mocking them) fall back to indicate the judgment of God

Again no such thing as sign gifts.(Charismatic) Spiritual unseen gifts yes. Its a evil unredeemed generation that does seek a sign rather than prophecy the tongue of God

I have researched this all thoroughly and landed on a very good book that all should read who are seeking clarity on the matter:

'The Modern Tongues Movement'

-Robert G. Gromacki

Link:
https://www.amazon.com/Modern-Tongues-Movement-Robert-GROMACKI/dp/B000G8HYE6

 

[Bob Carabbio]

True faith is the issue as that is what Christ was talking about not just saying words as we see in His declarations...

Matthew 17:20
And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Luke 17:6
And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

ANd Mark 11:22-24. "WOF" is actually "WOP" - Word Of Presumption.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Again no such thing as sign gifts.

True statement. The classification of "Sign Gifts" are "Man's Theology". 1 cor 12 gives a partial list of "Spirituals" in V7-11.

And the phony "Sign Gift" category comes from the occasions where the manifesting of Tongues/Prophesy were taken as indications that the "Enduement of Power" (Luke 24:49) has come to certain groups (re: Acts 10:46).

That the "Spirituals (Gifts) are not available today is normally based in a false Interpretation of 1 Cor 13 :10 (that perfect) which is falsely applied to the establishment of the Canon of Scripture.