RC Sproul on the Doctrine of God

[makesends]

RC Sproul mentions, rather interestingly,

"It’s been my practice to tell [students] that on the one hand there’s nothing particularly unique about the doctrine of God confessed in the Reformed tradition of Christian theology. Presbyterians, Reformed Baptists, the Dutch Reformed, and other Reformed Christians affirm the same attributes of God that Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, the Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholics all do. There’s nothing radically different about our doctrine of God.​

​

"Yet, when those same students have asked me what’s the most significant distinctive of Reformed theology, I’ve said it’s our doctrine of God. Now, that does sound completely contradictory to my first statement, but I say that the Reformed doctrine of God sets us apart from other traditions for the reason that I know of no other theology that takes seriously the doctrine of God with respect to every other doctrine. In most systematic theologies, you get an affirmation of the sovereignty of God on page one of your theology text, but then once you move on to soteriology (doctrine of salvation), eschatology (doctrine of last things), and anthropology (doctrine of humanity), and so on, the author has seemingly forgotten what he said about God’s sovereignty on page one.​

​

"Reformed theologians, however, self-consciously see the doctrine of God as informing the whole scope of Christian theology."​

The Reformed Doctrine of God by R.C. Sproul​

​

That's rather remarkable to me, because I didn't know how to say the difference, and how since becoming 'Calvinistic' in my theology, I've considered the Doctrine of God —who/what God is— to be the most important doctrine of all, and basic to every other thing, from beginning to end. While the words may sound the same from one denomination to another, and even from some cults, if we don't get the sense of difference between us and God, in authority and power, and in purity and purpose, in knowledge and wisdom, in ownership and subservience, in aseity and creaturehood, and in every other way, we don't get the meaning of the words.

The theologies of every other denomination and point of view begin with God as omnipotent creator, but as one travels through their other -ologies, the erosion begins. But in Reformed Theology and Calvinism, the other doctrines cling desperately to the very center of all fact for their meaning. TULIP does not stand alone, but derives its basis, in its parts and in its unity, to that center. Go to any of Systematic Theologies, headings, and they begin there. Go to the smallest part of truth, it is based on who/what God is. I myself do not claim Reformed Theology nor Calvinism as my own. They only sound like what I have come to believe. But the same phenomenon applies.

If I want those who come to know the Lord to know nothing else, I want them to know the Lord who owns us, and who made us for himself. And when I die, I almost have to believe that I will be happiest when I see them seeing him as he is, (but I know better—because I too will see him as he is).

 

[Deleted member 559]

The unique thing about Reformed Theology that I have come to appreciate, is that it’s the only theological system that I know of that tries to understand the role God has given to every individual person.

In all other theological systems, every individual person gets to choose their own role in order to determine the outcome of God’s plan.

R.C. Sproul’s Chosen By God was instrumental in my conversion to Reformed Theology.

 

[makesends]

The unique thing about Reformed Theology that I have come to appreciate, is that it’s the only theological system that I know of that tries to understand the role God has given to every individual person.

Amen! And his reason for making each particular individual. He doesn't pick them out of a pool of generic humans. He made each for his purposes for that particular one.

In all other theological systems, every individual person gets to choose their own role in order to determine the outcome of God’s plan.

Yes! It is so bad that I've been told that God cannot accomplish his plans unless I obey! (Well, then, I guess he will never accomplish his plans, because there's always someone disobeying!)

R.C. Sproul’s Chosen By God was instrumental in my conversion to Reformed Theology.

How long ago was that?

 

[Deleted member 559]

How long ago was that?

Last September. I was reading Chosen But Free along with several other books at the time. One day I woke up and the truth hit me like a ton of bricks. It was quite a surreal experience that I'll never forget.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm probably only Calvinistic but I like our God.

I know some people don't but you have to be consistent, and I don't see anything at all inconsistent about our descriptions of God even logically followed through, it's all perfectly consistent with Scripture and honestly perfectly consistent with what I would imagine (a) God to be.

It only sounds messed up coming from the mouths of those assigning bad motives to God and making light of sin I believe.

 

[makesends]

I'm probably only Calvinistic but I like our God.

I know some people don't but you have to be consistent, and I don't see anything at all inconsistent about our descriptions of God even logically followed through, it's all perfectly consistent with Scripture and honestly perfectly consistent with what I would imagine (a) God to be.

It only sounds messed up coming from the mouths of those assigning bad motives to God and making light of sin I believe.

Yeah, you are Calvinistic. Maybe not Calvinist, but even classic Arminians are Calvinistic. Reformed theology is Calvinistic. I don't claim any of those, but I'm Calvinistic— in some ways more than Calvinists are.

 

[makesends]

I'm probably only Calvinistic but I like our God.

Arguments against Reformed and Calvinist Theology often revolve around claims that we preach an unloving and capricious god. I've even heard that Calvin never mentions the love of God in his Institutes. They say, "and I find that telling". It gets to the point where you just SMH (Shake My Head) and walk away. There can be nothing more loving than such a being as Almighty God, infinitely Pure, DANGEROUSLY Pure, deigning to create an intimate people for himself, in such an outrageous way.

I know some people don't but you have to be consistent, and I don't see anything at all inconsistent about our descriptions of God even logically followed through, it's all perfectly consistent with Scripture and honestly perfectly consistent with what I would imagine (a) God to be.

AMEN! At some point, all the other 'theologies' are inconsistent, self-contradictory, or even abandon reason altogether. Some even promote abandoning reason as the only way to find faith.

It only sounds messed up coming from the mouths of those assigning bad motives to God and making light of sin I believe.

And those are always, self-deterministic systems, or based on assumptions that self-determinism of humans is basic. Even when they don't realize they are doing so. It is a tenacious fault.

 

[Arial]

Last September. I was reading Chosen But Free along with several other books at the time. One day I woke up and the truth hit me like a ton of bricks. It was quite a surreal experience that I'll never forget.

That book Chosen But Free is a travesty of deception. It was given to me to read not long after Reformed/Calvinism was brought to my attention. I think the first Sproul book I read was "What Is Reformed Theology". And by the time I was given Chosen But Free, I had read a number of Reformed books by various authors. (My first reaction to the first book given me on the subject happened within the first page. A delighted "This is about God!"). The book was Truths That Transform by Dr. Kennedy.

I never finished the Chosen But Free book but gave it back saying "This is just muddying the waters." I was too green to see all the ways and the hows that it was doing that, but I could see that it was doing that and intentionally. Then I read James White's counter to it, The Potters Freedom.

That cry to hear about God had been in me for awhile, and so far from "about God" was all the preaching and teaching and writing in the Charismatic churches I attended, that I did not even know what I meant when I thirsted for that or what it would be. That is a very sad state of affairs in even non-Charismatic but free will churches. But I sure knew what I meant when it was presented to me. It is the doctrine of God pervading and standing guard over doctrine and interpretation of every word in the Bible.

 

[Hazelelponi]

nd those are always, self-deterministic systems, or based on assumptions that self-determinism of humans is basic. Even when they don't realize they are doing so. It is a tenacious fault.

The doctrine of God is what brought me to Christ, or perhaps it was Christ who brought me to the doctrine of God which in turn brought me to Christ correctly.

I asked a stranger - and he was a perfect stranger - to tell me about their Christ one day, I just had to understand. He asked me what made me think he was a Christian, because it had neither come up nor been mentioned... Lol. I'm pretty sure he thought I was nutty.

He wanted to start with God though, and I think it's helpful to do after coming to Christ in this manner.

I think maybe that's the problem in the main is that there's not enough foundational teaching, or people just don't gravitate to it unless they want to fight with it - which I kinda understand too . Lol

I just don't know mainly what to do with people in the main.

To use horse riding analogy, God allows us our head, and then if we go too far he reins us back in and corrects us. He says these are the things that are good and then allows us to slowly learn why they are good and then adopt them.

For as sovereign as God is, he also allows us as individuals room to learn and grow, so I never want to do some violence to people, do or say something that will hurt others faith.

I think that's what leaves me the most confused. I'm not sure what we are supposed to be doing.

 

[Arial]

I think maybe that's the problem in the main is that there's not enough foundational teaching, or people just don't gravitate to it unless they want to fight with it - which I kinda understand too . Lol

I agree that is the problem along with what is taking its place. A completely man focused religion. What MacArthur calls "felt needs". (It took me awhile to figure that out because it is more understandable if it is accompanied by examples of what he means, and he did not do that.)In short it means dealing with the problems and issues that Christians have in this world and providing sermons and books on how to overcome our problems. What can we get from Jesus and how do we get it. In my experience, there was never any theological teaching or doctrinal teaching on even the basic foundations of salvation. (Faith as in saving faith, atonement. propitiation, substitution, justification, grace, glorification, original sin, the Trinity, sin etc).

When we read the works of the Reformers and contemporary Reformed/Calvinist writers, we get those things. They are the focus. It is not only God centered with the Doctrine of God always remaining consistent with itself, and Christ centered, it is all God and Christ and our position beneath him and subject to him as creatures.

To use horse riding analogy, God allows us our head, and then if we go too far he reins us back in and corrects us. He says these are the things that are good and then allows us to slowly learn why they are good and then adopt them.

I like that analogy. It reminds of a horse analogy that I came up with years and years ago and still run to in time of need. Oddly, it came from a novel I was reading that had a horse trainer in it. No one could handle this race horse but this one person. The horse was high strung, fearful, in constant flight mode. In those situations, the author wrote, the trainer would lay his hand upon the horse's neck and comfort (quiet) him. The minute I read that my mind connected that to God and it became a prayer, asking God, to "lay his hand upon me and comfort me." And you know, he always does. It is such a connection. He is my refuge and my strength. My hiding place. "I hide myself in You."

For as sovereign as God is, he also allows us as individuals room to learn and grow, so I never want to do some violence to people, do or say something that will hurt others faith.

I know exactly what you mean. That is the hard part. We never know what God is doing in another person. Should our words be said or withdrawn? Should we keep on or stop? The scriptures tell us how to conduct ourselves, treating others with respect and courtesy and kindness. And I have found that when I get in these disputes and they become heated, it is easy to lose sight of doing all for the glory of God, and a careful examination of my own motives to check if they have shifted from the original intent and become self motivated, helps. If it is our sincerest desire to never cast shame upon his name that we bear, he will let us know and pull us back in repentance.

 

[Carbon]

in some ways more than Calvinists are.

Huh? In which ways?

 

[Carbon]

That book Chosen But Free is a travesty of deception.

Indeed it is.

 

[Carbon]

That book Chosen But Free is a travesty of deception. It was given to me to read not long after Reformed/Calvinism was brought to my attention. I think the first Sproul book I read was "What Is Reformed Theology". And by the time I was given Chosen But Free, I had read a number of Reformed books by various authors. (My first reaction to the first book given me on the subject happened within the first page. A delighted "This is about God!"). The book was Truths That Transform by Dr. Kennedy.

I never finished the Chosen But Free book but gave it back saying "This is just muddying the waters." I was too green to see all the ways and the hows that it was doing that, but I could see that it was doing that and intentionally. Then I read James White's counter to it, The Potters Freedom.

That cry to hear about God had been in me for awhile, and so far from "about God" was all the preaching and teaching and writing in the Charismatic churches I attended, that I did not even know what I meant when I thirsted for that or what it would be. That is a very sad state of affairs in even non-Charismatic but free will churches. But I sure knew what I meant when it was presented to me. It is the doctrine of God pervading and standing guard over doctrine and interpretation of every word in the Bible.

Have you read the potter's freedom, James White?

 

[Arial]

Have you rad the potter's freedom, James White?

Yes. I said so in that post. It is an excellent book and very helpful in learning to recognize the methods used to present untruths that of course the Bible, if the word is properly handled, will never support. Plus Geisler began in Chosen But Free, began with an outright lie by saying he was Calvinist, just not extreme Calvinist. He called the five points (doctrines of grace) extreme Calvinism.

 

[Carbon]

Yes. I said so in that post.

Yes you did, sorry.

 

[Deleted member 559]

That book Chosen But Free is a travesty of deception.

Oh yes, the author (Norman Giesler, I believe) attempts to redefine Arminianism as “Moderate Calvinism”, as well as poor exegesis of cited “proof texts”.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

RC Sproul mentions, rather interestingly,

"It’s been my practice to tell [students] that on the one hand there’s nothing particularly unique about the doctrine of God confessed in the Reformed tradition of Christian theology. Presbyterians, Reformed Baptists, the Dutch Reformed, and other Reformed Christians affirm the same attributes of God that Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, the Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Catholics all do. There’s nothing radically different about our doctrine of God.​

​

"Yet, when those same students have asked me what’s the most significant distinctive of Reformed theology, I’ve said it’s our doctrine of God. Now, that does sound completely contradictory to my first statement, but I say that the Reformed doctrine of God sets us apart from other traditions for the reason that I know of no other theology that takes seriously the doctrine of God with respect to every other doctrine. In most systematic theologies, you get an affirmation of the sovereignty of God on page one of your theology text, but then once you move on to soteriology (doctrine of salvation), eschatology (doctrine of last things), and anthropology (doctrine of humanity), and so on, the author has seemingly forgotten what he said about God’s sovereignty on page one.​

​

"Reformed theologians, however, self-consciously see the doctrine of God as informing the whole scope of Christian theology."​

The Reformed Doctrine of God by R.C. Sproul​

​

That's rather remarkable to me, because I didn't know how to say the difference, and how since becoming 'Calvinistic' in my theology, I've considered the Doctrine of God —who/what God is— to be the most important doctrine of all, and basic to every other thing, from beginning to end. While the words may sound the same from one denomination to another, and even from some cults, if we don't get the sense of difference between us and God, in authority and power, and in purity and purpose, in knowledge and wisdom, in ownership and subservience, in aseity and creaturehood, and in every other way, we don't get the meaning of the words.

The theologies of every other denomination and point of view begin with God as omnipotent creator, but as one travels through their other -ologies, the erosion begins. But in Reformed Theology and Calvinism, the other doctrines cling desperately to the very center of all fact for their meaning. TULIP does not stand alone, but derives its basis, in its parts and in its unity, to that center. Go to any of Systematic Theologies, headings, and they begin there. Go to the smallest part of truth, it is based on who/what God is. I myself do not claim Reformed Theology nor Calvinism as my own. They only sound like what I have come to believe. But the same phenomenon applies.

If I want those who come to know the Lord to know nothing else, I want them to know the Lord who owns us, and who made us for himself. And when I die, I almost have to believe that I will be happiest when I see them seeing him as he is, (but I know better—because I too will see him as he is).

Just read this the other day.

 

[Arial]

Yes you did, sorry.

Hey, no problem.

 

[makesends]

The doctrine of God is what brought me to Christ, or perhaps it was Christ who brought me to the doctrine of God which in turn brought me to Christ correctly.

I asked a stranger - and he was a perfect stranger - to tell me about their Christ one day, I just had to understand. He asked me what made me think he was a Christian, because it had neither come up nor been mentioned... Lol. I'm pretty sure he thought I was nutty.

He wanted to start with God though, and I think it's helpful to do after coming to Christ in this manner.

I think maybe that's the problem in the main is that there's not enough foundational teaching, or people just don't gravitate to it unless they want to fight with it - which I kinda understand too . Lol

I just don't know mainly what to do with people in the main.

To use horse riding analogy, God allows us our head, and then if we go too far he reins us back in and corrects us. He says these are the things that are good and then allows us to slowly learn why they are good and then adopt them.

For as sovereign as God is, he also allows us as individuals room to learn and grow, so I never want to do some violence to people, do or say something that will hurt others faith.

I think that's what leaves me the most confused. I'm not sure what we are supposed to be doing.

Not to denigrate anyone putting it that way, but "allowing" is a word I'm beginning to despise. It only shows part of the story. God takes us through what he does for HIS purposes. It is our disobedience, but it is HIS PLAN. We are here to grow into what HE planned, and whether we see it or not, it involves absolutely every detail that happens, good and bad, obedience and rebellion. We are not the judges of what he is doing.

But when we belong to him, every step shows the difference between his purity and patience, and our sin. That love is amazing. Grace. And the sin hurts.

 

[makesends]

Huh? In which ways?

For example, hardly any Calvinists think in terms of Sanctification also being monergistic.

Or, the language they employ, that God allows this and that, instead of causing it.

I am, according to my definitions, a hard determinist.

Many speak of a free will, bound only by the sinful flesh, pre-regeneration, as though our decisions, but for that, are not caused to be one way or another.