Question for Arminians

[Carbon]

Since Arminisns believe God looked through eternity and saw who would believe and who would not believe.
Do you believe God is trying to save those who He saw would not believe?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I have a different view on this, the scriptures that talk about God foreknowing, mean to me God knew ahead of time that "people would believe", these ones he marked out. The Early Church when using the term foreknew, did not give it a deterministic meaning. Stating that those foreknown to be unrighteous could find repentance if they desired it. I have copied the following from my website quotes to support this.

Not made Wicked by God​

We see the terms usage by Justin Martyr in the passages that follow, foreknow his text shows does not mean God made some wicked, he says that the wicked can seek repentance and find it. This is contry to the Calvanistic idea that "b. God predestines certain souls to salvation and, esp. in Calvinism, others to damnation" (Collins 2023*W0). So predestination, or foreknowledge can not mean God assigns some to salvation and some to damnation.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho​

Chap. CXL. — In Christ All Are Free. The Jews Hope for Salvation in Vain Because They Are Sons of Abraham.​

"...Furthermore, I have proved in what has preceded, that those who were foreknown to be unrighteous, whether men or angels, are not made wicked by God’s fault, but each man by his own fault is what he will appear to be..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 122-End*E1)

Chap. CXLI. — Free-Will in Men and Angels.​

"...But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 122-End*E1)

Foreknown "were to believe in Him", and "to believe in Him"​

Justin also uses the term Foreknown, with the phrase "foreknown to believe in him". There is a suggestion with the term "to believe", that God is looking forward to a time when He can see people will believe in Him; at the time before creation He knows there will be those who accept His ways.

Justin Martyr - Dialogue with Trypho​

Chap. XLII. — The Bells on the Priest’s Robe Were a Figure of the Apostles.​

"...all the other appointments of Moses I can demonstrate that they were types, and symbols, and declarations of those things which would happen to Christ, of those who it was foreknown were to believe in Him, and of those things which would also be done by Christ Himself..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 36-52*E2)

Chap. LXX. — So also the Mysteries of Mithras Are Distorted from the Prophecies of Daniel and Isaiah.​

"...And this prophecy proves that we shall behold this very King with glory; and the very terms of the prophecy declare loudly, that the people foreknown to believe in Him were fore-known to pursue diligently the fear of the Lord..." (Rev. Dods 1867, Ch 67-83*E3)

 

[Eleanor]

Good question. This throws a wrench into the theory and misused texts to support that theory (notoriously 2 Peter 3:9; 1 Timothy 2:4) that God wants every single person ever to be saved.

God knows this could never be the case since He knows all that will be saved.

Such a notion presents God as hoping and waiting for some to be saved, totally contrary to the salvation that was accomplished for the particular persons for whom Christ died as per Ephesians 2.

This would also place God in a position of not knowing who would be saved, and would contradict John 6:37; Romans 8:26ff, and a multitude of other Scriptures revealing His eternal and divine attributes.

Instead, the Biblical position is that God set out to save all whom He willed to save; Romans 9:11ff, Ephesians 1:4; Matthew 1:21 &c.

How do you reconcile the two?

 

[Eleanor]

There is no reconciling the two.

I see a reconciliation in the secret will and the revealed will of God (Dt 29:29). And I see
an example of it in God giving his secret will to Moses regarding Pharaoh: "I will harden his heart. . .(so) he will not listen to you," (Ex 4:21),
and his revealed will to Pharaoh: "Let Israel go." (Ex 7:1-3)

 

[Eleanor]

That's impossible because God doesn't reveal His secret will and you cannot know it.

That's His revealed will, not His secret will.

They are both the same things, God's revealed will.

Furthermore, you haven't shown me how the two positions in my post can be reconciled. Well, they can't be because only the latter is Biblical, and they are mutually exclusive.

Well, I was thinking in terms of Pharaoh, to whom God's will for him was secret.

 

[Eleanor]

That's impossible because God doesn't reveal His secret will and you cannot know it.

That's His revealed will, not His secret will.

They are both the same things, God's revealed will.

Furthermore, you haven't shown me how the two positions in my post can be reconciled. Well, they can't be because only the latter is Biblical, and they are mutually exclusive.

Well, you just blew it all out of the water.

What think ye of the irreconciliation?

Could it be like Pharaoh's situation?

 

[Carbon]

 

[civic]

Hey that’s my line

 

[Carbon]

Hey that’s my line

I like popcorn too.

 

[civic]

I like popcorn too.

Salty with extra butter

 

[Carbon]

Salty with extra butter

Absolutely

 

[civic]

Absolutely

My wife makes real popcorn not the microwave stuff almost every time we watch tv together .

 

[Eleanor]

Sorry, the above isn't clear nor does it deal with my post in a tangible fashion.

I guess I'm just going to have to leave it at Mt 24:37-38. They perish by their own fault.

That reconciles it for me.

 

[Eleanor]

That avatar works well here.

 

[civic]

That's how I make it. Stick of butter, salt, popcorn. Fire it up in the cast iron Dutch oven.

Yes except the cast iron is to heavy for her it’s what I use, she goes with the light weight non stick caphalon pot

 

[Eleanor]

OK.

What exactly are you reconciling?

Whatever you said in post #5 that could not be reconciled.

 

[Eleanor]

Yeah, well, you've done nothing of the sort.

It cannot be reconciled, and so far all you've done is dodge with ambiguous nonsensical posts.

The positions are mutually exclusive, only one is Biblical.

1 Tim 2:4 is not Biblical?

 

[Eleanor]

Yeah, well, you've done nothing of the sort.

It cannot be reconciled, and so far all you've done is dodge with ambiguous nonsensical posts.

"Will have" - it is not God who has them condemned, they condemn themselves, as in Mt 27:28.
God has men saved.

 

[Eleanor]

No way? Really?

Ditto.

You've yet to show what you reconciled. Well, because you cannot.

But I digress, carry on.

I've reconciled it to my faith.

The meaning is not as many presume.
"Will have" (wants) is the key.

God is in the business of saving (see the cross), men are in the business of condemning themselves (Mt 27:28).

That God saves only some and not all has no bearing on God being in the business of saving.

 

[Carbon]

Since Arminisns believe God looked through eternity and saw who would believe and who would not believe.

Do you believe God is trying to save those who He saw would not believe?

If He saw they would not believe, does He still try and save them anyway?
Is it possible God missed them changing their mind?

Curious about what Arminians believe here.