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Purgatory is a Deadly Fiction

The bottom line is this... Either Christ established the Catholic Church or He didn't.
No, that is not the bottom line.

The bottom line is that the Roman Catholic Church is not the only authority nor the only source of reform for itself and this is found throughout the Bible. If the RCC did rely on scripture then those facts of scripture are/would be accommodated, and you would not be arguing against outside influences or arguing the red herring of "authority."
 
No, that is not the bottom line.
It is indeed.... look what happened when individuals self-interpreted scripture [thousands of denominations all claiming they have the truth]
The bottom line is that the Roman Catholic Church is not the only authority
They and the Orthodox are the only ones with apostolic succession from the first century to now.
nor the only source of reform for itself and this is found throughout the Bible.
The Bible was bound by the Catholic Church. The NT canon came from the Catholic Church. [The pillar of truth; wisdom of God made known through Her].
 
It is indeed.... look what happened when individuals self-interpreted scripture [thousands of denominations all claiming they have the truth]

I would offer we are lovingly commanded by the living word of God to study to show ourselves approved of God and avoid false apostles with there oral tradition of dying mankind. he warns in 1 John 2:27 of those who say we need dying mankind to teach us rather than the promised Holy Spirit . Again who lovingly commands us to study by rightly dividing not by adding or subtracting from it with the doctrine of dying mankind

The same as you claim. the same as the fathers claimed. no such thing as non denominational God created differences as in what does any man have that was not given them freely from the will of God And if we have why would we say we have not?

The kingdom of God does not come by observing the temporal dying things seen shadows of the eternal things of God

The unbelieving fathers tried to prove that all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) was heresy so they could keep thier own heresy . Simply heresies of dying mankind attempting make the divine revelation of our Holy Father, Holy See without effect .Paul stated it correctly. He worshipped the Creator God . . of the fathers not a legion of father as gods.


Acts 24:13-14 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

We must be care how we hear who we hear. remember what happened to Peter our brother in the lord he was seduced by the father of false apostles Satan. And Peter rebuked the Lord not seen and forbid the Son of man jesus from doing the will of Holy Father . If it worked in Peter nothing changed false prophets with false prophecy . . . "oral traditions" of dying mankind come in all generation of men

We walk by faith as it is writen in the book of prophecy .
 
Same authority you or I have private interpretations, personal commentary he gives the desire to preach. It does not come from us apostles

.God defines the us and those who went out .

An apostles is one sent with no other meaning aded like a" legion of venerable one " .Those who have no faith in as coming from the unseen eternal things of God. they must look to the temporal hoping human touch can heal the temporal and eternal.

God uses the temporal seen to give us the unseen eternal gospel understanding.Failure to use the valuable keys (2 Corinthians 4:18) the prescription needed to rightly divide the aparbles a person is stuck with the temporal

Eternal and or with temporal the 20/20 recipe

2 Corinthians 4:18 King James Version While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Preach the gospel .He does the teaching and physical healing if any is needed. His living words are Spirit and life given Jesus said of his own dying flesh it profits for zero nothing

Again no power from the dying hands laid on flesh but rather a form of prayer

They that had no faith as it is written (sola scriptura) looked the temporal and replied the legions of gods are cominf in the likenes of men dying flesh and blood

Satn the counterfeit set up the Greek gods using barnabas as the father the unsen God and Paul the prist sent with words from the father making the temporal thing seen without efect .


Acts 14:7 And there they preached the gospel. And there sat a certain man at Lystra, impotent in his feet, being a cripple from his mother's womb, who never had walked:The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith (God's power) to be healed, Said with a loud voice,( of God) Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.And they called Barnabas, Jupiter; and Paul, Mercurius, because he was the chief speaker. Then the priest of Jupiter, which was before their city, brought oxen and garlands unto the gates, and would have done sacrifice with the people.You reall

You RC's should really consider what Calvin had to say here. I pray you will

“Purgatory is a deadly fiction of Satan, which nullifies the cross of Christ, inflicts unbearable contempt upon God’s mercy, and overturns and destroys our faith.” - John Calvin

A Roman Catholic responded to this by saying, " lets say you break someone’s window. You ask for and receive their forgiveness. But you still have to fix their window. Character flaws need to be gotten rid of before we enter heaven or sanctification is just a legal fiction. The real heresy today is that God doesn’t see your sin but only sees Jesus. If that were true, then lots of the New Testament was meaningless."

OUR RESPONSE: instead of comparing sin to a broken window, let's get a little closer to reality. Let's say you break your neighbors priceless Ming vase. It's worth more than you can make in many lifetimes. Either you have to pay for it, or your neighbor forgives you. Now in forgiving you the debt doesn't just disappear, your neighbor has to absorb the cost himself. That is what the gospel is like. Christ pays our debt in full to a holy God, doing for us what we are unable to do for ourselves. To believe otherwise is to pretend you can pay part of the price of your redemption, which is to usurp Christ's office as Savior.

Christ not only is our justification but is our sanctification.

"...because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.” 1 Cor 1:30-31
I dont remember a "gospel according to Calvin" and it certainly isnt in my canon.
He was not "sent" to preach. So why do you care what he thinks?

The canon is a product of the church. Without the church you do not even have a new testament and you have no idea what it is in it..
Jerome - arguably the most famous ancient biblical translator - clearly leans to the church to decide on what is in scripture.
It is why you have the new testament you do.

And in the canon decided by the "Pillar of truth" with the power to bind and loose is the book maccabees which was in the septuagint from which Jesus preached on occasion. Luther had no power to remove it with his "gospel of Luther".

It is utterly BIZARRE that luther uses a post Christ rabbinic decision as his argument to remove Maccabees from scripture. ( mainly of course because it said things he did not like....) to Luther scripture had to conform to his beliefs, he did not have to conform to scripture , which is why he wanted to kick James out too the so called "epistle of straw" since james had the temerity to disagree with Luthers sola fidei! How dare he!. And since he could not kick it out he wanted to edit it instead!!!! with selective use of the word "alone"

I have news for Luther. The same rabbis who rejected maccabees would also have rejected ALL of the gospels too.
Following luthers illogic, you would have no new testament at all!!

Even Calvin accepts the papal succession in his commentary on the power to bind and loose on his commentary on Matthew - check it out - , but somehow he thinks the pope "revoked it" which was news to the pope, and certainly not true at the time of Leo!

In any event Maccabees refers to the ancient Jewish practice of prayers for the dead. So the dead must have a state in which prayers are worthwhile. Even our orthodox brethren believe in necessity of "purgation" but as with the eucharist leave as a mystery what it means.
So (almost ) everyone believed in purgation till the reformation and most do since

My question then. Are you perfect unblemished?
If nothing unlclean can enter heaven according to revelations.
Not till you are "Purified as if by fire".
There are no "snow covered dunghills" in heaven, anywhere I can find.

Purgatory is real as also confirmed by later messengers confirm validated by miracles. Take Fatima.

So the question is not why we believe it, when the pillar of truth has spoken on it, those sent to teach you.. so why dont you?

You should listen to those who are "sent" to preach. Not calvin.
 
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I dont remember a "gospel according to Calvin" and it certainly isnt in my canon.
He was not "sent" to preach. So why do you care what he thinks?

The canon is a product of the church. Without the church you do not even have a new testament and you have no idea what it is in it..
Jerome - arguably the most famous ancient biblical translator - clearly leans to the church to decide on what is in scripture.
It is why you have the new testament you do.

And in the canon decided by the "Pillar of truth" with the power to bind and loose is the book maccabees which was in the septuagint from which Jesus preached on occasion. Luther had no power to remove it with his "gospel of Luther"
I would offer. It's not the Protestant's that seek after the dead saints for those living as worker with a familiar spirits gods the legion of fathers as mere oral traditions of dying mankind.

The cannon is the work of Christ as a labor of his love, writen with his invisible finger, after no man. By faith Christ revealed his love as it is written.(sola scriptura)

Revelation is still the last chapter of the book of prophecy sealed with 7 seals til the end of time.

Some that had no faith as it is written desired to puff up the apostles and venerate thier dying flesh .Christ revealed to them. What is it that they do have that did come from Christ the creator and if they did receive it from God why would they boast in the flesh of dying mankind after the god of this world .

The apostles dared not to elevate their own dying flesh above sola scriptura

1 Corinthians 4:5-7King James Version Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

We gain nothing from the apostles. Each man receives his own reward from their work assigned to them .Peter was not used as a witness that represents the power of the Holy Father not seen. Jesus had that assignment. .
 
I can prove purgatory exists!

If you can see the promised land as a type of heaven, why not the children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt as a type of purgatory?

There is purgation in scripture!

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
 
A Roman Catholic responded to this by saying, " lets say you break someone’s window. You ask for and receive their forgiveness. But you still have to fix their window. Character flaws need to be gotten rid of before we enter heaven or sanctification is just a legal fiction. The real heresy today is that God doesn’t see your sin but only sees Jesus. If that were true, then lots of the New Testament was meaningless."
Might be worth mentioning something that occurred to me a few years ago: In the way we "get everything backwards" seeing from the human temporal POV, we may have not only the means of sanctification, but the goal of it, wrong, and as a result, even our understanding of the definition of it wrong.

Seems to me quite a few believers of my acquaintance --actually, I don't know of any that did not-- upon the day of their death approach anything near getting rid of character flaws --in fact, it might be argued that some died worse than they were earlier in their lives. But we have been told that God is making us members of the Body of Christ, and of the Bride of Christ, and that we are the Temple of God. It may well be that we don't know much more than that we need to obey, rather than to pursue some temporal notion of Christ-likeness. Character is what God is building into the particular member he will perfect, according to what he has in mind for each of us. We have only a vague idea of the goal he is after.

Logic would seem to demand that if the above is incorrect, (that some of the redeemed can be said to die 'worse' than earlier in their lives), then we don't know what is good/ best/ sanctified.
 
I can prove purgatory exists!

If you can see the promised land as a type of heaven, why not the children of Israel in bondage down in Egypt as a type of purgatory?

There is purgation in scripture!

Isa 6:6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.
So, go ahead and prove it exists.

See, this is what I mean. You take something like this as proof. It is not proof, but it is all you need to convince you of what you already believe.
 
So, go ahead and prove it exists.

See, this is what I mean. You take something like this as proof. It is not proof, but it is all you need to convince you of what you already believe.
I can prove purgatory’s existence!

It’s a town in Colorado!

Lol!
 
While we’re at it are we also going to reject all of the false accusations?

“Salvation by the shilling” etc.
 
While we’re at it are we also going to reject all of the false accusations?

“Salvation by the shilling” etc.
Can I assume the "false accusations" refers to somebody's other accusations of fault with the RCC? I'm not sure what you are referring to. What has that to do with the OP? Is this a, "Well, ok, but what about this?", kind of argument --'moving the goalposts' or 'red herring'?
 
Can I assume the "false accusations" refers to somebody's other accusations of fault with the RCC? I'm not sure what you are referring to. What has that to do with the OP? Is this a, "Well, ok, but what about this?", kind of argument --'moving the goalposts' or 'red herring'?
There have been many false unjustified accusations about purgatory and indulgences

Can we agree they are not in line with virtues of Jesus Christ?

That’s all
 
There have been many false unjustified accusations about purgatory and indulgences

Can we agree they are not in line with virtues of Jesus Christ?

That’s all
The accusations? Or, "Can we agree [purgatory and indulgences] are not in line with virtues of Jesus Christ?"

Meanwhile, you did not answer my question about how your previous post is in line with the OP.
 
Verses please
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
 
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
So what’s the diff?
The Roman Catholic notion of Purgatory as a place is highly speculative.
That there will be purgation in judgement is Scriptural.
 
I dont remember a "gospel according to Calvin" and it certainly isnt in my canon.
He was not "sent" to preach. So why do you care what he thinks?

The canon is a product of the church. Without the church you do not even have a new testament and you have no idea what it is in it..
Jerome - arguably the most famous ancient biblical translator - clearly leans to the church to decide on what is in scripture.
It is why you have the new testament you do.
It's the gospel of Christ not the gospel of the church, dying mankind.

Our living God decides what make up the book of prophecies of Christ. The perfect sealed with 7 seals til the end of time

.The living words of our unseen Holy Father are not dead as if ending with Revelation the last chapter
.
Adding or subtracting to or from the perfect with the oral traditions of dying men called fathers, is simply another kind of gospel another.
another teaching authority as master other than sola scriptura. One of dying mankind that makes the true gospel to no effect, desolate.

They invented ways to teach dying mankind that they have only received a remnant of grace and not the fullness of grace the whole price of born again salvation

They teach the non-venerable that only a Queen mother named after our blessed by God's mercy sister in the Lord, Mary. Teaching the non- venerable she alone received to full price of salvation . Forgiveness from God's grace and powerful mercy.

No such thing as Limbo. Breathable life after one takes thier last breath of life .

No apostolic succession of dying mankind (3500 and rising) What the non- venerable must call " patron saints". a doctrine of dying mankind.

Disemboded gods in the likeness of dying mankind .The abomination of desolation dying mankind in the place of our unseen Holy Father above.. .denying that which is written (sola scriptura )

God decides on the cannon He makes men different not the pope. Who as a law of dying mankind you must call Holy Father, Holy See our vicar in Christ on and on . . . denying the loving commandment to call no man on earth Holy Father, Holy See our vicar in Christ the list goes on . . .simply making a mockery of our Holy Father in heaven

1 Corinthians 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another. For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Who makes you differ from another?

Did those apostles puff themselves up above sola scriptura which they call heresy ?

Why attribute the Canon to dying sinners? Whats the hope ?
 
but the good news is that the elevator only goes up from there
THE PROBLEM, however, for Roman Catholics, is that they've fallen for satan's BEST JOKE on them!!!

The Catholics who die, and find themselves in "Purgatory", will quickly realize that it's HELL, they were never Born again of the Holy Spirit, and there's NO ELEVATOR. Hell is their home forever. Just imagine the PLEASURE satan gets when they realize they've been "had"!!!

Eph 2:8,9, and Gal 2:16 is the solution to the Catholic problem. Salvation is BY FAITH, and not by good works, ceremonies, sacraments, or Roman Catholic "Tradition"
 
There have been many false unjustified accusations about purgatory and indulgences

Can we agree they are not in line with virtues of Jesus Christ?

That’s all

Can light agree with darkness? Can we agree they are not of God the Creator.

More like many true accusations proven by the living word of God. (sola scriptura) .

The Pope teaching that only a Queen Mother named after our blessed sister in the Lord, Mary received all the grace needed for salvation.While the rest of the planet a unknowable remnant of saving grace..The highly venerable sinners teaching the non - venerable pew sitters. Saying she alone received the fullness of grace the complete cost of salvation. While again the rest of the planet a unknowable remnant .

In effect destroying the annihilation doctrine as if life continued when dead . And as if our bodies do not return to the dust and the spirit temporarily given under the letter of the law "death" (thou shall not or you're dead) The temporal spirits return to the Holy Father who gave it temporally under the law.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

It's why the Catholic must seek after the dead family members or what they are required to call paton saints.3500 gods in the likeness of men .
It destroys sola scriptura which they must call a heresy .The living word of God makes their heresy ( laws of dying mankind) without efect .Two kinds of wisdoms.

Wisdom of God, all things written in the law and prophets inspired from above. And earthly of the devil .

Why do despite to the fullness of grace. . the full price of salvation? Whats the hope???

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets (oral traditions of dying mankind) also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers (teaching the non venerable only a queen of heaven received the fulness .) among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them (paid the full price not a down payment ) , and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
 
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