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Providence in the Christian's Battles With Sin

Arial

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This is from the Westminster Confession, Chapter 5.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God, doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;t and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.u
t 2 Chron. 32:25,26,31; 2 Sam. 24:1.
u 2 Cor. 12:7-9; Ps. 73 throughout; Ps. 77:1-12; Mark 14:66 to the end, with John 21:15-17.
Let's discuss.​
 
I'm not sure of the discussion but I'll put forward the effort. To me this means that sometimes we are left to our own evil devices, sometimes it's to punish us for our sin, or at other times perhaps to help us to recognize our need for Christ and humble us as we cannot conquer sin only Christ can.
 
I'm not sure of the discussion but I'll put forward the effort. To me this means that sometimes we are left to our own evil devices, sometimes it's to punish us for our sin, or at other times perhaps to help us to recognize our need for Christ and humble us as we cannot conquer sin only Christ can.
It is for a season and it is manifold temptations. What we do with the temptations exposes us to our own frailty and strengthens us in recognizing and relying on our dependence on Christ.

When it says "chastise them for former sins" I am backing away at the moment anyway, from agreeing with that. I believe the Bible tells us they are removed from us as far as the east is from the west. It is the sins we commit after coming to Christ that can serve a purpose as we learn what has not yet been killed in us and needs to come under the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and grace.
 
When it says "chastise them for former sins" I am backing away at the moment anyway, from agreeing with that. I believe the Bible tells us they are removed from us as far as the east is from the west. It is the sins we commit after coming to Christ that can serve a purpose as we learn what has not yet been killed in us and needs to come under the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and grace.

I wouldn't back away from it though. There's not just personal sin - there's also national.

Nations can fall under judgement, and when that occurs it affects everyone in the nation, but we as believers know what it is when sin increases in the land, and while the judgement on the nation can be painful (increase in unjust behaviors by others affects believers) it's not God's punishment upon the believers as they are in Christ, but it is a judgement on the nation as a collective.
 
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This is from the Westminster Confession, Chapter 5.

V. The most wise, righteous, and gracious God, doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations, and the corruption of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption, and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled;t and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself, and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for sundry other just and holy ends.u
t 2 Chron. 32:25,26,31; 2 Sam. 24:1.
u 2 Cor. 12:7-9; Ps. 73 throughout; Ps. 77:1-12; Mark 14:66 to the end, with John 21:15-17.
Let's discuss.​
This is a needed topic.
 
I wouldn't back away from it though. There's not just personal sin - there's also national.

Nations can fall under judgement, and when that occurs it affects everyone in the nation, but we as believers know what it is when sin increases in the land, and while the judgement on the nation can be painful (increase in unjust behaviors by others affects believers) it's not God's punishment upon the believers as they are in Christ, but it is a judgement on the nation as a collective.
However the subject of that paragraph in the WCF is dealing with personal sin.

How the sins of a nation affect the entire nation and judgement that comes because of it would make a wonderful OP. I hope you will start one.
 
However the subject of that paragraph in the WCF is dealing with personal sin.

How the sins of a nation affect the entire nation and judgement that comes because of it would make a wonderful OP. I hope you will start one.

No I don't read it that way because of the Scripture they attached to what was stated:

To better explain, because I probably did a horrible job above.


The first passage deals with Hezekiah and God's threat of national judgment due to it (because Hezekiah was the head of state):

"But Hezekiah’s heart was proud and he did not respond to the kindness shown him; therefore the LORD’s wrath was on him and on Judah and Jerusalem." 2 Chronicles 32:25

2 Chronicles 32:25 - Hezekiah's Illness and Recovery

Hezekiah as head brought judgement on the entire nation. Of course repentance turns back judgment, as Scripture shows:

Hezekiah eventually repented:

"But Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, both he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD did not come upon them in the days of Hezekiah." (v. 26)

But Hezekiah was given an opportunity of testing anyway:

"And so in the matter of the envoys of the princes of Babylon … God left him to himself, in order to test him and to know all that was in his heart."

So here the national judgment was averted due to the repentance of both Jerusalem (religious/spiritual head, the church) and Hezekiah, the acting head of state who brought it on in the first place, with him facing a temptation or trial that he fell to in order to show him his sin, that of pride/vanity.

Next the WCF cites a passage from Samuel about judgement over the sins of Israel: The account of David’s census is in 2 Samuel 24 (and paralleled in 1 Chronicles 21). It’s one of the more theologically rich.

There was first the census command:

"Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, 'Go, number Israel and Judah.'" (2 Sam. 24:1)

The text says God’s anger was already burning against Israel. The Scripture doesn’t specify the exact sin here, but it shows that there was a national condition—not just David’s personal failing—that merited judgment.Because of that national sin, in God's sovereignty, He used David’s decision to call for a census as a means of bringing judgment.

In the parallel text (1 Chron. 21:1), it says “Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.”

These are not contradictions but two perspectives: God sovereignly ordained the trial (His anger burned), while Satan acted as the immediate agent tempting David. God permitted Satan to carry out this incitement, much like in the book of Job.

David’s command resisted: Joab, the commander, objected:

"May the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times as many as they are… but why does my lord the king delight in this thing?" (v. 3). Even Joab, not known for great piety, sensed this was wrong. But David insisted.

2. Why Was the Census Sinful?

Taking a census was not inherently sinful—God commanded censuses elsewhere (e.g., Num. 1). The issue here seems to be motive and pride:

David likely sought to measure his military strength, putting confidence in numbers rather than the Lord.

It was an act of self-exaltation and unbelief, shifting the nation’s security from God’s promises to human resources.

This fits the broader biblical pattern: pride often emerges at moments of strength or prosperity (like Hezekiah’s pride after recovery).

3. God’s Judgment

After the census was taken, David’s conscience struck him:

"David’s heart struck him after he had numbered the people. And David said to the LORD, 'I have sinned greatly in what I have done.'" (v. 10)

God sent the prophet Gad to offer David three choices of judgment:

Three years of famine.

Three months of fleeing before enemies.

Three days of pestilence.

David’s response:

"I am in great distress. Let us fall into the hand of the LORD, for his mercy is great; but let me not fall into the hand of man." (v. 14)

God sent a plague: 70,000 people died. The reason I believe that God invited David to the census temptation over Israels sins rather than his own was because David was likewise the head of Israel.

So, headship matters - and I mean it really matters in ways most people don't consider.

However the end of the story here is that God stayed the angels hand at Jerusalem, saving them from the plague.

So I see the WCF to be speaking about national sin and personal sin, times of trials and testing
 
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How the sins of a nation affect the entire nation and judgement that comes because of it would make a wonderful OP. I hope you will start one.

And if you are sure this is only talking about personal sins that's fine but I don't know why they would make these references if they aren't talking about national, collective and personal.

So I guess I will shut up then and declare I don't know what the WCF is talking about then, pretty much altogether. I just thought with all these passages that was what they were arriving at.

Everything is better perhaps if I just withdraw all my stupid attempts at participating. I will take my leave. It hadn't dawned on me until just now I was being invited to leave the thread.

I'm sorry for posting and messing up the forum. I will leave.
 
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Arial said:
When it says "chastise them for former sins" I am backing away at the moment anyway, from agreeing with that. I believe the Bible tells us they are removed from us as far as the east is from the west. It is the sins we commit after coming to Christ that can serve a purpose as we learn what has not yet been killed in us and needs to come under the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit and grace.
I wouldn't back away from it though. There's not just personal sin - there's also national.

Nations can fall under judgement, and when that occurs it affects everyone in the nation, but we as believers know what it is when sin increases in the land, and while the judgement on the nation can be painful (increase in unjust behaviors by others affects believers) it's not God's punishment upon the believers as they are in Christ, but it is a judgement on the nation as a collective.
Yes, but, at least as I take the Westminster, it is talking about the personal walk and sanctification, 'former sins' not being sins before conversion, but sins previous to the chastisement —likely, sins not yet repented of. I agree with it, chastisement not meaning punishment as wages of the sin, but correction, as a father chastises his children to teach them obedience and other things the Westminster mentions. In particular it is talking here about what I see as a certain separation from fellowship with Christ, to make us less complacent and more aware of our need for Christ, not to mention our utter inability to do what is right apart from him doing it in us.
 
In particular it is talking here about what I see as a certain separation from fellowship with Christ, to make us less complacent and more aware of our need for Christ, not to mention our utter inability to do what is right apart from him doing it in us.

That's cool. Thank you for telling me.

I have updated my about me page and am leaving. Take good care and all my love.
 
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