Praying for the unsaved?

[prism]

I was in a Church where one of the members argued 'it's vain to pray for the unsaved because God has already predestined his own to salvation and no amount of prayer will change that.

The pastor there would add a corrective and say, 'yes, but God uses means, and you might be those means He has ordained'

Do you pray for the unsaved? Why/why not?

 

[PeanutGallery]

I was in a Church where one of the members argued 'it's vain to pray for the unsaved because God has already predestined his own to salvation and no amount of prayer will change that.

The pastor there would add a corrective and say, 'yes, but God uses means, and you might be those means He has ordained'

Do you pray for the unsaved? Why/why not?

According to Calvinism, God ordains/decrees whether one prays or not prays for the unsaved. One cannot thwart God's decrees; therefore, asking "Why/why not" implies man's volition, which does not make sense in Calvinism.

 

[Carbon]

I was in a Church where one of the members argued 'it's vain to pray for the unsaved because God has already predestined his own to salvation and no amount of prayer will change that.

The pastor there would add a corrective and say, 'yes, but God uses means, and you might be those means He has ordained'

Do you pray for the unsaved? Why/why not?

Of course I do. I believe true believers have a burden for the lost, or at least they should. And it is a means God has ordained.

 

[Carbon]

According to Calvinism, God ordains/decrees whether one prays or not prays for the unsaved. One cannot thwart God's decrees; therefore, asking "Why/why not" implies man's volition, which does not make sense in Calvinism.

It’s obvious you’re not a Calvinist. Or you would have a better understanding.

No matter which Christian belief system, man is still responsible.

 

[Carbon]

therefore, asking "Why/why not" implies man's volition, which does not make sense in Calvinism.

Let a Calvinist explain what makes sense and what does not, in Calvinism.

 

[fastfredy0]

The pastor there would add a corrective and say, 'yes, but God uses means, and you might be those means He has ordained'

Do you pray for the unsaved? Why/why not?

I agree with the pastor.
I pray for the salvation of my 3 grand kids every day.

Praying for the salvation of others under the Arminian system is a waste of time as that conflicts with the idea of Free Willyism. Of course, if someone kills 100 people they obviously interfere with the false theology of Free Willyism (self determination when it comes to salvation), but these indisputable facts never cause the blind to see the truth.

Tangential issue: Praying for the dead on the assumption that God would know you would do it after the passing of the dead and therefore said prayer would be analogous to praying for the living. I don't do it, but I can't see a logical difference.

One cannot thwart God's decrees; therefore, asking "Why/why not" implies man's volition

Your implications does not follow. Asking "why" vaguely implies a specific motive. Example: curiousty, possible solution to similar problem in the future, asking for someone else. You're just picking one that suits your bias.

 

[ReverendRV]

I was in a Church where one of the members argued 'it's vain to pray for the unsaved because God has already predestined his own to salvation and no amount of prayer will change that.

The pastor there would add a corrective and say, 'yes, but God uses means, and you might be those means He has ordained'

Do you pray for the unsaved? Why/why not?

That's a Hyper Calvinist viewpoint. First, ask that person why the Spirit gives us the Gift of Evangelism...

 

[ReverendRV]

Of course I do. I believe true believers have a burden for the lost, or at least they should. And it is a means God has ordained.

This is an example of one Calvinist needing to debate another Calvinist over a Doctrine, for good reasons...

 

[Rockerduck]

I'm not Calvinist, but I agree with much that is said of predestination, because I've experienced that in my salvation.
While a chosen person feels predestined, that same cannot be applied to those not saved yet, because everyone's salvation experience is different. All testimonies are different. That is the reason for Sunday worship. God uses His word to draw the sinner, convict, then the sinner surrenders, and is saved.

Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by word of God.

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm not Calvinist, but I agree with much that is said of predestination, because I've experienced that in my salvation.
While a chosen person feels predestined, that same cannot be applied to those not saved yet, because everyone's salvation experience is different. All testimonies are different. That is the reason for Sunday worship. God uses His word to draw the sinner, convict, then the sinner surrenders, and is saved.

Romans 10:17 - Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by word of God.

Rockerduck, since you are open to Calvinism, why don't you hang with us (the Staff) for a while; and see if we can answer your objections?

I myself am the most liberal 5-Point Calvinist you will ever meet; almost Arminian. So my point is, you can have your cake and eat it too...

 

[PeanutGallery]

One cannot thwart God's decrees; therefore, asking "Why/why not" implies man's volition

...
Your implications does not follow. Asking "why" vaguely implies a specific motive. Example: curiousty, possible solution to similar problem in the future, asking for someone else. You're just picking one that suits your bias.

A consistent Calvinist would need to reply, "because God ordained/decreed it so."
As a non-Calvinist, I pray for the lost because I fear for their eternal destination.

 

[brightfame52]

Even Christ didnt pray for the unsaved world Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[Carbon]

Even Christ didnt pray for the unsaved world Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

We aren’t Christ. Scripture says God hates certain people, for example Easu.
And considering that, what does God say about our enemies in Matthew 5?
Love them.

Should you not pray for them?

 

[Carbon]

We aren’t Christ. Scripture says God hates certain people, for example Easu.
And considering that, what does God say about our enemies in Matthew 5?
Love them.

Should you not pray for them?

@brightfame52

There will come a time when we look at the reprobate when they are judged and agree they deserve what they get. But until that time, we do not know who they are, nor do we know the elect.

We should desire the unsaved to know God and believe.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Even Christ didnt pray for the unsaved world Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Check to context; he was at this point specifically praying for his disciples and their mission:
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

 

[prism]

Check to context; he was at this point specifically praying for his disciples and their mission:
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

I'm not sure why you included vs. 20, except it was part of the context, yet it includes more than His disciples.

 

[brightfame52]

We aren’t Christ. Scripture says God hates certain people, for example Easu.
And considering that, what does God say about our enemies in Matthew 5?
Love them.

Should you not pray for them?

I didnt say we are Christ, but He set an example, dont pray for the salvation of the reprobate, non elect, God isnt going to save them. Pray for the Salvation of Gods Elect, like Jesus did, them who shall believe Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Now you ask, do I pray for my enemies ? Do you mean pray for their Salvation ? It depends if they elect, if by chance they elect, I pray for their salvation, if they not elect, no I dont.

 

[brightfame52]

Check to context; he was at this point specifically praying for his disciples and their mission:
John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Context is fine, Jesus didnt pray for the reprobate world

 

[ReverendRV]

Context is fine, Jesus didnt pray for the reprobate world

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Timothy 2:1‭-‬6 NIV

I say this as a 5-Point Calvinist...

@Rockerduck

 

[brightfame52]

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
1 Timothy 2:1‭-‬6 NIV

I say this as a 5-Point Calvinist...

Thats prayer for the elect