Jesus said, this is the work of God, that you believe……

[Carbon]

Can faith be an arbitrary act of the will, can a man ever believe or disbelieve because he chooses to do so?

It seems to be common to speak of beliefs as voluntary convictions. But isn’t faith always the involuntary response of the mind to the evidence which has been presented to it?

Why is the same gospel the power unto salvation for some, for others a savor of death unto death?
is it not because the unregenerate heart is morally evil and decidedly hostile to God and to Christ?
Listen to what Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews of His day.
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life. John 5:40.

Yet faith is the most important work which is demanded of men. Listen to what Jesus gave for an answer to the Jews when that asked, “what must we do, that we may do the works of God?”

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29.
So wouldn’t it make sense that God gives to His, what He requires of them?

He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration.

Thoughts?

 

[Carbon]

Then we shall not turn back from you;
give us life, and we will call upon your name!
Restore us, O LORD God of hosts!
Let your face shine, that we may be saved! Psalm 80:18-19

Restore us to yourself, O LORD, that we may be restored! Lam 5:21

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44

When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, “Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.” Acts 11:18

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Jer 31:33

 

[brightfame52]

carbon

Yet faith is the most important work which is demanded of men. Listen to what Jesus gave for an answer to the Jews when that asked, “what must we do, that we may do the works of God?”

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” John 6:28-29.
So wouldn’t it make sense that God gives to His, what He requires of them?

He creates in them the capacity to believe in the moment of regeneration.

Thoughts?

Would you say that Faith/Believing is one of the good works the New Creature was Created to walk in ? Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Carbon]

carbon



Would you say that Faith/Believing is one of the good works the New Creature was Created to walk in ? Eph 2:10

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

How can it be denied? Scripture states it as so.

 

[brightfame52]

How can it be denied? Scripture states it as so.

I agree, thats why I think we need to be careful in teaching that one isn't Justified before God until they believe or exercise faith, because then we make Justification before God be by our good work. Not saying you do that, but many do !

 

[Carbon]

I agree, thats why I think we need to be careful in teaching that one isn't Justified before God until they believe or exercise faith,

Like I said, we are subject to time. And at the appointed time, we are regenerated and when we believe and confess who Jesus is, we are justified. All of salvation the whole Ordo salutis is monergistic. It is when we believe we are declared (not made) justified. And this happens in time.

because then we make Justification before God be by our good work. Not saying you do that, but many do !

The only way it would be our own work is if faith came before regeneration, it’s something we cause. Which is opposite of truth. But we believe because through regeneration, the new man in Christ possesses faith. A gift.
By us, of our new selfs believing we are declared justified. It is not of the natural man so it is not our good work.

 

[brightfame52]

carbon

Like I said, we are subject to time. And at the appointed time, we are regenerated and when we believe and confess who Jesus is, we are justified.

I would say that's works. I believe scripture teaches that those who Christ died for are Justified before God at the Cross before they are even born. Then later in their lifetime they are regenerated and given Faith to receive it, to believe it.

The only way it would be our own work is if faith came before regeneration,

It doesnt matter, even if its something the Spirit enabled you to do, its still a work, a good work, but still a work you did by the power of the Spirit. If you condition Justification before God on something you did, or was enabled to do, its works.

 

[Carbon]

carbon

I would say that's works. I believe scripture teaches that those who Christ died for are Justified before God at the Cross before they are even born. Then later in their lifetime they are regenerated and given Faith to receive it, to believe it.

I’m thinking you don’t know the Greek language?

It doesnt matter, even if it’s something the Spirit enabled you to do, it’s still a work, a good work, but still a work you did by the power of the Spirit.

Do you understand regeneration? Given a new heart? Being crucified with Christ? A new creation?

You know what this all means?!

If you condition Justification before God on something you did, or was enabled to do, its works.

So are you suggesting an elect foes not have to believe?

 

[brightfame52]

I’m thinking you don’t know the Greek language?

Do you understand regeneration? Given a new heart? Being crucified with Christ? A new creation?

You know what this all means?!


So are you suggesting an elect foes not have to believe?

I see no value in continuing this discussion, I have given you my view friend.

 

[Carbon]

I see no value in continuing this discussion, I have given you my view friend.

Fair enough.


Thanks

 

[brightfame52]

Believing is the work of God the Spirit, we believe according to the working of His Power in us Eph 1:18-20

18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe according to the working of his mighty power,

20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

The same mighty power in operation when Jesus was raised from the dead, worketh in the elect sinner effecting their believing in Jesus ! So we believe because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

 

[brightfame52]

Again the work of the Holy Spirit produces the belief of the Truth 2 Thess 2:13-14

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The word belief here is actually the same greek noun for Faith πίστις

Now I understand the Sanctification of the Spirit to be the New Birth or Born of the Spirit which results in Faith or believing the Gospel by which the born again is called.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

It doesnt matter, even if its something the Spirit enabled you to do, its still a work, a good work, but still a work you did by the power of the Spirit. If you condition Justification before God on something you did, or was enabled to do, its works.

It does matter. Such a choice is impossible outside a changed nature ( God ). The power and faith needed to "choose" God is given. That is not a work...it's a gift. It is mercy.

Esau was moved by God to serve Jacob. A "good" thing as it served the purposes of God. And yet:

14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

What of our responding to God's call? Is that a "work?" or the necessary and inevitable reaction of a changed individual?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

and

35Jesus answered, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to Me will never hunger, and whoever believes in Me will never thirst. 36But as I stated, you have seen Me and still you do not believe.37Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.39And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none of those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For it is My Father’s will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.”

 

[brightfame52]

It does matter. Such a choice is impossible outside a changed nature ( God ). The power and faith needed to "choose" God is given. That is not a work...it's a gift. It is mercy.

Esau was moved by God to serve Jacob. A "good" thing as it served the purposes of God. And yet:



What of our responding to God's call? Is that a "work?" or the necessary and inevitable reaction of a changed individual?



and

Again it doesnt matter, if you condition salvation on something you did by the flesh or enabled to do by grace, its works salvation and condemned !

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Again it doesnt matter, if you condition salvation on something you did by the flesh or enabled to do by grace, its works salvation and condemned !

And, again, you are missing the pertinent point or don't understand "the flesh". Acting in the power of God is not acting in the "flesh". Unregenerate man cannot act in any way except in "the flesh" ie a sinful manner. We worship God "in spirit and truth" by the power of God. This is not God worshiping himself. We are doing it...by His power. And it is not my "condition". It is God's condition. Unless you are born again you shall not see the Kingdom of God. Period. That is a function of the Spirit. That is a changed nature. That is also a "condition".

 

[ReverendRV]

And, again, you are missing the pertinent point or don't understand "the flesh". Acting in the power of God is not acting in the "flesh". Unregenerate man cannot act in any way except in "the flesh" ie a sinful manner. We worship God "in spirit and truth" by the power of God. This is not God worshiping himself. We are doing it...by His power. And it is not my "condition". It is God's condition. Unless you are born again you shall not see the Kingdom of God. Period. That is a function of the Spirit. That is a changed nature. That is also a "condition".

It's an interesting discussion. The heart is the only organ that can function without the influence of the Brain; it has an Autonomic ability to function, though not for long without the Brain. Our new Heart is the Gift of God, and it's through the Heart we Believe. In this sense, it's true that Faith is an Autonomic Function of the New Heart. But it's also true that without the Mind, it's as if we're Rocky or Weedy Soil; Faith won't last...

Of course, I'm not saying this in the sense that we can Lose our Faith and our Salvation. I'm saying it in a way that Salvation is Monergistic in the sense we just need a New Heart; and in the sense that RC Sproul said Sanctification is Synergistic. Both have the Ring of Truth...

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

It's an interesting discussion. The heart is the only organ that can function without the influence of the Brain; it has an Autonomic ability to function, though not for long without the Brain. Our new Heart is the Gift of God, and it's through the Heart we Believe. In this sense, it's true that Faith is an Autonomic Function of the New Heart. But it's also true that without the Mind, it's as if we're Rocky or Weedy Soil; Faith won't last...

Of course, I'm not saying this in the sense that we can Lose our Faith and our Salvation. I'm saying it in a way that Salvation is Monergistic in the sense we just need a New Heart; and in the sense that RC Sproul said Sanctification is Synergistic. Both have the Ring of Truth...

The "heart" of the OT and NT is synonymous with all the bits that make up the "will" of man. Intellect, desire, ect. Just me being nitpicky and hopefully helpful. I like the imagery though, RRV.

 

[ReverendRV]

The "heart" of the OT and NT is synonymous with all the bits that make up the "will" of man. Intellect, desire, ect. Just me being nitpicky and hopefully helpful. I like the imagery though, RRV.

Ain't we All Nitpicy?

Thanks...

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Ain't we All Nitpicy?

Thanks...

Nitpicy sounds vaguely dangerous.

 

[ReverendRV]

Nitpicy sounds vaguely dangerous.

It depends if One keeps Nit Picking after the Nits have been picked. That causes Divorce...