Grace That Saves

[Arial]

If we know that saving grace is from God, then to understand what that saving grace is, we need first to have a premise of who God is, and second who man is in relation to Him.

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand or say to him. "What have you done?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord' he turns it wherever he will.

Is 45:8-11 "Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed and I will do it.

We see from just these three verses who God is and who man is in relation to Him. We also know from Scripture that all are born in Adam, born sinners who sin and are at enmity with God; that we are hopeless and helpless to change this condition. Our hearts are made of stone.

God's graciousness towards mankind is often mistaken for His grace in salvation, as though they were identical, and they are not. It is His graciousness towards sinners that is not an attribute but a characteristic of His attributes, His nature, and because He has a purpose. In the Mosaic covenant we see His graciousness being shown, in that He makes a way of sins to be passed over year by year, but it does not save unto eternal life. We see His graciousness with Adam and Eve, in the fact that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, that He makes it to rain on the just and unjust, provides for both man and animal. (Ps 104). That He does not destroy us all. Nevertheless a judgement remains in due time on all the wicked.

In both His graciousness and His saving grace we see a personal covenant relationship that God stoops down to make with the sinner. It is called grace because we do not deserve it, can do nothing to earn it, and is purely and only by grace that any are saved unto eternal life with Him in His kingdom. God is the only one who is in a position as creator to extend grace to the undeserving and He is the only One who has it to give. It is Him and Him only we have sinned against.

It is by His grace and grace alone that any are saved, and that through something else we do not have being spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins as we are; faith. So in His grace He gives faith, the faith in the sufficiency of the person and work of Jesus to pay for our iniquities, and to take us out of Adam and his sin, and place us instead into Christ and His perfect righteousness. It is God's grace that He opens deaf ears that cannot understand, and blind eyes that could not see; it is His grace that opens those deaf ears to hear the voice of our Shepherd and follow Him. And what His grace does, His grace does, just as His every word accomplishes that for which He sends it. (Is 55:10-11)

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."

There we have it, from the very mouth of God.

 

[donadams]

“Personal covenant”?

 

[makesends]

“Personal covenant”?

Personal relationship, covenant relationship —thus, "...personal covenant relationship...". Problem?

 

[Soyeong]

If we know that saving grace is from God, then to understand what that saving grace is, we need first to have a premise of who God is, and second who man is in relation to Him.

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand or say to him. "What have you done?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord' he turns it wherever he will.

Is 45:8-11 "Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed and I will do it.

We see from just these three verses who God is and who man is in relation to Him. We also know from Scripture that all are born in Adam, born sinners who sin and are at enmity with God; that we are hopeless and helpless to change this condition. Our hearts are made of stone.

God's graciousness towards mankind is often mistaken for His grace in salvation, as though they were identical, and they are not. It is His graciousness towards sinners that is not an attribute but a characteristic of His attributes, His nature, and because He has a purpose. In the Mosaic covenant we see His graciousness being shown, in that He makes a way of sins to be passed over year by year, but it does not save unto eternal life. We see His graciousness with Adam and Eve, in the fact that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, that He makes it to rain on the just and unjust, provides for both man and animal. (Ps 104). That He does not destroy us all. Nevertheless a judgement remains in due time on all the wicked.

In both His graciousness and His saving grace we see a personal covenant relationship that God stoops down to make with the sinner. It is called grace because we do not deserve it, can do nothing to earn it, and is purely and only by grace that any are saved unto eternal life with Him in His kingdom. God is the only one who is in a position as creator to extend grace to the undeserving and He is the only One who has it to give. It is Him and Him only we have sinned against.

It is by His grace and grace alone that any are saved, and that through something else we do not have being spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins as we are; faith. So in His grace He gives faith, the faith in the sufficiency of the person and work of Jesus to pay for our iniquities, and to take us out of Adam and his sin, and place us instead into Christ and His perfect righteousness. It is God's grace that He opens deaf ears that cannot understand, and blind eyes that could not see; it is His grace that opens those deaf ears to hear the voice of our Shepherd and follow Him. And what His grace does, His grace does, just as His every word accomplishes that for which He sends it. (Is 55:10-11)

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."

There we have it, from the very mouth of God.

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus.

 

[Arial]

In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey the Mosaic Law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through the Mosaic Law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus.

That is because they were UNDER the Law. That covenant of Law has become obsolete. (Heb 8:13). Why? It is no longer necessary. (Jer 31:33). The Law is no longer our teacher in righteousness etc. the Holy Spirit through the word is.

 

[Soyeong]

That is because they were UNDER the Law. That covenant of Law has become obsolete. (Heb 8:13). Why? It is no longer necessary. (Jer 31:33). The Law is no longer our teacher in righteousness etc. the Holy Spirit through the word is.

God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and obligated to refrain from sin. While the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts us flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). The way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us from not living in obedience to it, and the position that we don't need to obey it is the position that we don't need salvation.

 

[donadams]

Personal relationship, covenant relationship —thus, "...personal covenant relationship...". Problem?

Yes cos scripture has our salvation in common! Jude 1:3

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

 

[Arial]

God is sovereign, so we are all under His law and obligated to refrain from sin

Agreed. That came about at our very creation in the Garden of Eden. But not the Mosaic covenant written, legally binding, Law. There is a distinction.

While the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, the New Covenant involves God putting the Mosaic Law in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33) and involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts us flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to the Mosaic Law (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

Not the Mosaic, written, legally binding, code of Law. Only the righteous God and righteousness that is in the Law. In Christ all that Law is fulfilled and HE is our righteousness, and HE leads us in paths of righteousness for HIS namesake. Yes, the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer leads us to ever increasing obedience to God, to righteousness, not the Mosaic, written, legally binding, code of Law given to Israel only.

The way to act in accordance with God's righteousness is straightforwardly based on God's righteousness, not on a particular covenant, and God's righteousness is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to do that are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any.

I am not saying it is based on covenant, but covenant is the way in which God establishes a personal and intimate relationship with mere mortals. The Mosaic covenant is not eternal. If it were it would have existed before it was given in all eternity past, and would not have become obsolete. It is God who is eternal, not the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic covenant was serving a specific purpose in God's redemption of sinful, helpless, and hopeless humans, until the time that the Redeemer would come. The purpose was multifaceted, and the mysteries in the Old Covenant revealed in the New. (Eph 3:1-11). If the Mosaic covenant is still in effect, then it has not become obsolete. The righteousness and obedience (therefore faith/trust in Him) was commanded and demanded at our creation, as His creatures, created in His image and likeness. It is still demanded, and not just of believers, but everyone ever born. Long before there was a Mosaic covenant Law. That is what has not changed or become obsolete.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and it is by the Mosaic Law that we have knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20), so living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically the content of his gift of saving us from not living in obedience to it, and the position that we don't need to obey it is the position that we don't need salvation.

Our salvation is from being in Adam, and in him being an entity that sins, and from our own sins. Our salvation is being taken out of the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of light. Your premise has Jesus suffering and dying in order to make salvation possible but not actually saving anyone. Our salvation is from facing God's wrath. It is the Spirit who leads the believer in righteousness which is obedience, which is the result of faith.

It is by the Mosaic Law that Israel (and by extension all) learn what sin is, but more than that, much more than that, just how poor and needy, destitute and helpless and hopeless, we are, and that our only hope is in God, and our only help comes from Him. But Adam and Eve knew they had sinned against God eons before the Mosaic Law was ever written. We by nature turn away from God. We are saved to turning to Him.

Jesus, when He rose from the dead, broke the chains of sin and death that bound the believer in condemnation and facing God's wrath, defeating their power to condemn those in Him. He did not merely hand us a key to the lock and make us able to do better. And He never said believe in me and keep the Sabbaths and the dietary laws, and you will be saved. The Bible tells us that He is sufficient. The Bible tells us that if we want to keep Sabbaths and dietary laws, it is ok, and if we think it is sin not to, then by all means do so but it does not add one iota to salvation, and not doing so does not remove one iota from salvation. And not to judge those who know their liberty in this.

 

[makesends]

Yes cos scripture has our salvation in common! Jude 1:3

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

How does Jude 1:3 demonstrate salvation in common? Or, perhaps, more to the point, how does "our salvation in common" negate salvation in particular —or, the "personal covenant salvation" that @Arial spoke of?

You haven't demonstrated a problem.

 

[donadams]

How does Jude 1:3 demonstrate salvation in common? Or, perhaps, more to the point, how does "our salvation in common" negate salvation in particular —or, the "personal covenant salvation" that @Arial spoke of?

You haven't demonstrated a problem.

Cos there is one savior for all men, lk 2:10 Jn 1:29 & 3:16 not a personal savior for each man

One covenant we must be in and in union with the one mediator to have communion with God and his saints!

 

[Arial]

Cos there is one savior for all men, lk 2:10 Jn 1:29 & 3:16 not a personal savior for each man

Luke 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Does Jesus save all men? Is each person who is saved, saved an individual? Is that then not personal? The passage mean there is only one Savior. It is the same Savior for any who are saved, and as we see in Scripture, all nations and all types of people.

John 1:29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
Did Jesus take away all the sins of the whole world at the cross? Will He do so at His return, there is a new heaven and a new earth, inhabited only by the redeemed who in Christ are made incorruptible and immortal?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Is a believer an individual? Or is he a community? Is it individuals who have eternal life and are a part of a community? Or is the community the thing that has eternal life? Do individuals have the breath of life? Or is it only the community that breathes this breath of life?

One covenant we must be in and in union with the one mediator to have communion with God and his saints!

Is the covenant the Catholic Church? Is the Catholic church the mediator of that covenant? Or is Jesus the mediator of the covenant in whom we may come boldly before His throne of grace to receive grace and mercy in our time of need? Are individuals in union with Christ through personal faith? Or are they in union with Christ through union with the Catholic Church?

 

[donadams]

Luke 2:10 And the angel said to them, "Fear not, for behold, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.
Does Jesus save all men? Is each person who is saved, saved an individual? Is that then not personal? The passage mean there is only one Savior. It is the same Savior for any who are saved, and as we see in Scripture, all nations and all types of people.

John 1:29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
Did Jesus take away all the sins of the whole world at the cross? Will He do so at His return, there is a new heaven and a new earth, inhabited only by the redeemed who in Christ are made incorruptible and immortal?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Is a believer an individual? Or is he a community? Is it individuals who have eternal life and are a part of a community? Or is the community the thing that has eternal life? Do individuals have the breath of life? Or is it only the community that breathes this breath of life?

Is the covenant the Catholic Church? Is the Catholic church the mediator of that covenant? Or is Jesus the mediator of the covenant in whom we may come boldly before His throne of grace to receive grace and mercy in our time of need? Are individuals in union with Christ through personal faith? Or are they in union with Christ through union with the Catholic Church?

Yes! All men are redeemed.
Yes! Propitious sacrifice of the lamb
Yes! 1 cor 12:13
Yes! Christ and his church are one. Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

 

[Arial]

Yes! All men are redeemed.

Then you are a universalist and there is no need of the Catholic church (or any church) and certainly you contradict teaching of your Catholic religion that her priests, and pope, and traditions, and sacraments, are necessary and can only be administered by a Catholic priest; and that only those in the Catholic church are redeemed.

Yes! Propitious sacrifice of the lamb

"Yes!" what?

Yes! 1 cor 12:13

The "all" there is all believers. That is who Paul is writing to.

Yes! Christ and his church are one. Acts 9:4 eph 5:32

You presume the Catholic church alone is Christ's church and presume we will all believe that because you and the Catholic church say so. We don't and it isn't. Now, if you were able to establish that it was with some higher authority that itself, that would be a different story. But you haven't and you can't----both because it is not true. All you/it can do is give isolated scriptures and interpret them in order to substantiate itself. That is not the way it works.

 

[makesends]

Cos there is one savior for all men, lk 2:10 Jn 1:29 & 3:16 not a personal savior for each man

One covenant we must be in and in union with the one mediator to have communion with God and his saints!

While I agree that there is a huge POV problem in the modern church, because of the emphasis on individualism, they neglect the corporate principle, it still follows that it is individual, even if it is corporal; by default, the corporate is comprised of individual members. And by logic, if God knew when he created, he created individuals for that purpose.

 

[donadams]

Then you are a universalist and there is no need of the Catholic church (or any church) and certainly you contradict teaching of your Catholic religion that her priests, and pope, and traditions, and sacraments, are necessary and can only be administered by a Catholic priest; and that only those in the Catholic church are redeemed.

"Yes!" what?

The "all" there is all believers. That is who Paul is writing to.

You presume the Catholic church alone is Christ's church and presume we will all believe that because you and the Catholic church say so. We don't and it isn't. Now, if you were able to establish that it was with some higher authority that itself, that would be a different story. But you haven't and you can't----both because it is not true. All you/it can do is give isolated scriptures and interpret them in order to substantiate itself. That is not the way it works.

No not universal salvation but Christ is the redeemer of the world so the whole world is redeemed!

Redemption:
Justification:
Sanctification:
Salvation:

Are not the same! As I sent above

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[donadams]

Not presumption but scripture one church Jn 10:16

 

[donadams]

While I agree that there is a huge POV problem in the modern church, because of the emphasis on individualism, they neglect the corporate principle, it still follows that it is individual, even if it is corporal; by default, the corporate is comprised of individual members. And by logic, if God knew when he created, he created individuals for that purpose.

One new covenant

 

[donadams]

If we know that saving grace is from God, then to understand what that saving grace is, we need first to have a premise of who God is, and second who man is in relation to Him.

Dan 4:35 All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand or say to him. "What have you done?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord' he turns it wherever he will.

Is 45:8-11 "Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed and I will do it.

We see from just these three verses who God is and who man is in relation to Him. We also know from Scripture that all are born in Adam, born sinners who sin and are at enmity with God; that we are hopeless and helpless to change this condition. Our hearts are made of stone.

God's graciousness towards mankind is often mistaken for His grace in salvation, as though they were identical, and they are not. It is His graciousness towards sinners that is not an attribute but a characteristic of His attributes, His nature, and because He has a purpose. In the Mosaic covenant we see His graciousness being shown, in that He makes a way of sins to be passed over year by year, but it does not save unto eternal life. We see His graciousness with Adam and Eve, in the fact that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, that He makes it to rain on the just and unjust, provides for both man and animal. (Ps 104). That He does not destroy us all. Nevertheless a judgement remains in due time on all the wicked.

In both His graciousness and His saving grace we see a personal covenant relationship that God stoops down to make with the sinner. It is called grace because we do not deserve it, can do nothing to earn it, and is purely and only by grace that any are saved unto eternal life with Him in His kingdom. God is the only one who is in a position as creator to extend grace to the undeserving and He is the only One who has it to give. It is Him and Him only we have sinned against.

It is by His grace and grace alone that any are saved, and that through something else we do not have being spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins as we are; faith. So in His grace He gives faith, the faith in the sufficiency of the person and work of Jesus to pay for our iniquities, and to take us out of Adam and his sin, and place us instead into Christ and His perfect righteousness. It is God's grace that He opens deaf ears that cannot understand, and blind eyes that could not see; it is His grace that opens those deaf ears to hear the voice of our Shepherd and follow Him. And what His grace does, His grace does, just as His every word accomplishes that for which He sends it. (Is 55:10-11)

"For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it."

There we have it, from the very mouth of God.

Then why are not all men saved?

 

[Arial]

Then why are not all men saved?

Because God never intended to save all men only a remnant. If you take note when studying the Scriptures, you would notice that it has always been so. It has never been all as God's plan of redemption moves forward. In the OT, as examples, only descendants of Seth, only one son of all generations as the Seed bearer, only Noah and his family, only Abraham and his family, only one nation, only a remnant of priests etc. In the NT Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose, For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brother. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[donadams]

Because God never intended to save all men only a remnant. If you take note when studying the Scriptures, you would notice that it has always been so. It has never been all as God's plan of redemption moves forward. In the OT, as examples, only descendants of Seth, only one son of all generations as the Seed bearer, only Noah and his family, only Abraham and his family, only one nation, only a remnant of priests etc. In the NT Romans 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose, For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brother. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What??? That’s would be injustice on God’s part which is impossible!

Lk 2:10-11 savior for all people

Jn 1:29 all sins

Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Dogma: God gives all men sufficient grace for eternal salvation!

Thanks