God's As Love Examined

[Arial]

Scriptures clearly tell us that God is love. This does not mean simply that He loves, but that it is a very attribute of who He is. His love is as large and perfect as is He. And yet He also says that He hated Esau but loved Jacob. (Mal 1:1-5 and quoted by Paul in Romans 9:13).

We see God doing and commanding the Israelites to do in the OT things that we, as humans, and our concept of love, would define as being as far away from love as one can get. Such as what we find in 1 Sam 15:3. I do not deny that these things are very hard to read and hear. There would be something very wrong with us as humans, creations of God, if they were not. But is that a valid reason to ignore them and act as though God never did do or could do them if He is love? And then base our entire theology on our concept of what love is, and therefore who God is. A theology that defines God's love according to our view of love, and carves an image of/to Him accordingly.

I bring that up because it is the very thing that those opposed to Reformed theology bring up as their primary reason, often, for saying it is unbiblical. They may claim it makes God a monster if He would choose some to save and not save all. What is simply unequal they call unfair. They may claim that a God who is love would never do such a thing, when even in our own lives, none of us are consistently equal and fair, nor do we believe we should be. They would define God's love by our idea of love but apply that to God as mandatory, rather than applying the same thing to ourselves also. It is very similar to a three year old stomping his feet and saying "It's not fair!" when the parents set a later time for their bedtime than the one they set for the three year old. According to this, God is obligated to love all people equally, and some say that He does.

So how are we to see God's love in light of the things we find in the OT and in fact, in sending His Son to the cross?

We see Him tell us in Deut 7 in light of His covenant with Israel, the forerunner and foreshadower of the superior covenant to come. I will highlight a few verses to bring out the crucial points for brevity. But the entire chapter needs to be read.

6. "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set His love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8. but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping an oath that He swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a might hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations, and repays to their face those who hate Him, by destroying them.

His love is specific. It is for those who He is in covenant with. This love He has for His covenant people, and the very character of love itself, hates evil and wickedness. He destroys it. He chooses who to love and who to covenant with. If He did not destroy evil that would not be love. He sent His only Son to the cross, into the hands of wicked men to be crucified. Why? Where is the love in that? It was love for Jesus first of all for Jesus tells us this in John 17. He tells us there also that the Father loves us, the believer, His covenant people, just as He loves the Son. Try wrapping your head around that! Jesus went to the cross because He loves the Father's people even as He is loved. It was that once and for all victory over evil, that was foreshadowed in Deut. 7. Those in Christ are His treasured possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, simply because He loves them. And all the wicked will be destroyed.

God is obligated to save no one. He is not obligated to us in any way, and certainly not to either save all or none, to treat all equally. He has not changed from the OT to the NT. He was not obligated to covenant with all nations or else no nation. He was not obligated to be fair with every nation and all people without exception---for what is fair about it being the Almighty God who fights against those He does not covenant with? And He is still not obligated to His creatures. And He still loves who He loves, and does not love who He does not love. He still chooses who to covenant with, and He still destroys His enemies. He did and does it all, for His glory.

 

[Josheb]

Very excellent op.

God is love and He loves in many ways. The fact that He did not wipe the planet clean and start over at Genesis 3:7 is a testimony to His love. He loved Adam and Eve enough to let them continue living, breathing air and pumping blood, despite their changed state, their estranged state, their sinful state, and we wouldn't be here if He wasn't a loving God who loved those who disobeyed Him when they acted unloving toward Him. It is very true He did not need to save anyone, and a unique kind of love that He did.

He definitely loves those in covenant relationship with Him differently.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.


For all others, a record is kept .

Matthew 12:36
But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Romans 14:12
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is destined for people to die once, and after this comes judgment...

Blessedly, those in a love relationship with God through His resurrected Son can stand firm on,

Romans 5:8
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Isaiah 1:18
"Come now, and let us reason together," Says the LORD, "Though your sins are as scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they will be like wool."

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am the one who wipes out your transgressions for My own sake, and I will not remember your sins.
Micah 7:19
He will again have compassion on us; He will tread our iniquities under foot. Yes, You will cast all their sins Into the depths of the sea.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.

Hebrews 10:15-18
And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.

The results are:

Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Peter 1:3-4
...His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature...


Pretty cool.

I've sometimes thought the reason no one can stand before God, see Him as He is, and live is because of His love, not wrath. Who could tolerate the magnitude and nature of God's love when not transformed?

1 Peter 4:3-6
For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

 

[Arial]

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

People, being what they are and seeing most things from one perspective only, theirs, tend to read this as though we can live up to this standard of love, and must, once we have been placed in Christ. Well, we can't. This is why His righteousness is counted as ours, and why God views us in Christ.

This love is God's love towards us.

 

[Josheb]

People, being what they are and seeing most things from one perspective only, theirs, tend to read this as though we can live up to this standard of love, and must, once we have been placed in Christ. Well, we can't. This is why His righteousness is counted as ours, and why God views us in Christ.

This love is God's love towards us.

It is true that this is God's love for those in Christ, and it is true that these are God's standards, and it is true we cannot live up to these standards on this side of the grave. They are, nonetheless, what is expected.

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.

God is love. He's not just loving; He is love. It is ontological. Therefore,

God is patient, God is kind and is not jealous; God does not brag and is not arrogant, He does not act unbecomingly; God does not seek His own, is not provoked, He does not take into account a wrong suffered, He does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but He rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. God never fails.​

That is the God we know. We may not know Him fully this way, nor understand the depths of any or all of these qualities, but that is the God we know and serve. It is also the standard to which we are called. Paul began this narrative by stating we can understand every mystery, know everything, have absolute faith, and give everything to the poor but without love we are nothing.

Josh is patient, Josh is kind and is not jealous; Josh does not brag and is not arrogant, he does not act unbecomingly; Josh does not seek his own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but he rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Josh never fails.

Arial is patient, Arial is kind and is not jealous; Arial does not brag and is not arrogant, she does not act unbecomingly; Arial does not seek her own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but she rejoices with the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Arial never fails.​

Who among us can do this?

John 13:34
I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

Matthew 5:43-45
I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves to be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Romans 13:8
Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for the one who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the Law.

1 John 2:4-6
The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


I don't know why He puts such stuff in there. It's not just impossible, it is really quite inconvenient .

Blessedly, it is neither impossible nor inconvenient for God. It is who He is and what He does. Praise God!

 

[Arial]

They are, nonetheless, what is expected.

I didn't say otherwise.

Who among us can do this?

I thought I already said that.

 

[Josheb]

I didn't say otherwise.

I thought I already said that.

I was affirming the prior statements....

...lovingly.

 

[makesends]

I don't know why He puts such stuff in there. It's not just impossible, it is really quite inconvenient .

NICE!

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Scriptures clearly tell us that God is love. This does not mean simply that He loves, but that it is a very attribute of who He is. His love is as large and perfect as is He. And yet He also says that He hated Esau but loved Jacob. (Mal 1:1-5 and quoted by Paul in Romans 9:13).

We see God doing and commanding the Israelites to do in the OT things that we, as humans, and our concept of love, would define as being as far away from love as one can get. Such as what we find in 1 Sam 15:3. I do not deny that these things are very hard to read and hear. There would be something very wrong with us as humans, creations of God, if they were not. But is that a valid reason to ignore them and act as though God never did do or could do them if He is love? And then base our entire theology on our concept of what love is, and therefore who God is. A theology that defines God's love according to our view of love, and carves an image of/to Him accordingly.

I bring that up because it is the very thing that those opposed to Reformed theology bring up as their primary reason, often, for saying it is unbiblical. They may claim it makes God a monster if He would choose some to save and not save all. What is simply unequal they call unfair. They may claim that a God who is love would never do such a thing, when even in our own lives, none of us are consistently equal and fair, nor do we believe we should be. They would define God's love by our idea of love but apply that to God as mandatory, rather than applying the same thing to ourselves also. It is very similar to a three year old stomping his feet and saying "It's not fair!" when the parents set a later time for their bedtime than the one they set for the three year old. According to this, God is obligated to love all people equally, and some say that He does.

So how are we to see God's love in light of the things we find in the OT and in fact, in sending His Son to the cross?

We see Him tell us in Deut 7 in light of His covenant with Israel, the forerunner and foreshadower of the superior covenant to come. I will highlight a few verses to bring out the crucial points for brevity. But the entire chapter needs to be read.

6. "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set His love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8. but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping an oath that He swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a might hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations, and repays to their face those who hate Him, by destroying them.

His love is specific. It is for those who He is in covenant with. This love He has for His covenant people, and the very character of love itself, hates evil and wickedness. He destroys it. He chooses who to love and who to covenant with. If He did not destroy evil that would not be love. He sent His only Son to the cross, into the hands of wicked men to be crucified. Why? Where is the love in that? It was love for Jesus first of all for Jesus tells us this in John 17. He tells us there also that the Father loves us, the believer, His covenant people, just as He loves the Son. Try wrapping your head around that! Jesus went to the cross because He loves the Father's people even as He is loved. It was that once and for all victory over evil, that was foreshadowed in Deut. 7. Those in Christ are His treasured possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, simply because He loves them. And all the wicked will be destroyed.

God is obligated to save no one. He is not obligated to us in any way, and certainly not to either save all or none, to treat all equally. He has not changed from the OT to the NT. He was not obligated to covenant with all nations or else no nation. He was not obligated to be fair with every nation and all people without exception---for what is fair about it being the Almighty God who fights against those He does not covenant with? And He is still not obligated to His creatures. And He still loves who He loves, and does not love who He does not love. He still chooses who to covenant with, and He still destroys His enemies. He did and does it all, for His glory.

The problem with your thesis is that you are picking and choosing what to use to define God from the OT. Are you now also prepared to agree that God repents of actions He has taken? Are you prepared to explain how an omnipotent God gets angry?

 

[Mr GLee]

Scriptures clearly tell us that God is love. This does not mean simply that He loves, but that it is a very attribute of who He is. His love is as large and perfect as is He. And yet He also says that He hated Esau but loved Jacob. (Mal 1:1-5 and quoted by Paul in Romans 9:13).

We see God doing and commanding the Israelites to do in the OT things that we, as humans, and our concept of love, would define as being as far away from love as one can get. Such as what we find in 1 Sam 15:3. I do not deny that these things are very hard to read and hear. There would be something very wrong with us as humans, creations of God, if they were not. But is that a valid reason to ignore them and act as though God never did do or could do them if He is love? And then base our entire theology on our concept of what love is, and therefore who God is. A theology that defines God's love according to our view of love, and carves an image of/to Him accordingly.

I bring that up because it is the very thing that those opposed to Reformed theology bring up as their primary reason, often, for saying it is unbiblical. They may claim it makes God a monster if He would choose some to save and not save all. What is simply unequal they call unfair. They may claim that a God who is love would never do such a thing, when even in our own lives, none of us are consistently equal and fair, nor do we believe we should be. They would define God's love by our idea of love but apply that to God as mandatory, rather than applying the same thing to ourselves also. It is very similar to a three year old stomping his feet and saying "It's not fair!" when the parents set a later time for their bedtime than the one they set for the three year old. According to this, God is obligated to love all people equally, and some say that He does.

So how are we to see God's love in light of the things we find in the OT and in fact, in sending His Son to the cross?

We see Him tell us in Deut 7 in light of His covenant with Israel, the forerunner and foreshadower of the superior covenant to come. I will highlight a few verses to bring out the crucial points for brevity. But the entire chapter needs to be read.

6. "For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. 7. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set His love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, 8. but it is because the Lord loves you and is keeping an oath that He swore to your fathers, that the Lord has brought you out with a might hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love Him and keep His commandments, to a thousand generations, and repays to their face those who hate Him, by destroying them.

His love is specific. It is for those who He is in covenant with. This love He has for His covenant people, and the very character of love itself, hates evil and wickedness. He destroys it. He chooses who to love and who to covenant with. If He did not destroy evil that would not be love. He sent His only Son to the cross, into the hands of wicked men to be crucified. Why? Where is the love in that? It was love for Jesus first of all for Jesus tells us this in John 17. He tells us there also that the Father loves us, the believer, His covenant people, just as He loves the Son. Try wrapping your head around that! Jesus went to the cross because He loves the Father's people even as He is loved. It was that once and for all victory over evil, that was foreshadowed in Deut. 7. Those in Christ are His treasured possession out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, simply because He loves them. And all the wicked will be destroyed.

God is obligated to save no one. He is not obligated to us in any way, and certainly not to either save all or none, to treat all equally. He has not changed from the OT to the NT. He was not obligated to covenant with all nations or else no nation. He was not obligated to be fair with every nation and all people without exception---for what is fair about it being the Almighty God who fights against those He does not covenant with? And He is still not obligated to His creatures. And He still loves who He loves, and does not love who He does not love. He still chooses who to covenant with, and He still destroys His enemies. He did and does it all, for His glory.

Amen ..I would think of Love as the very essence of God with that love as attribute he aplies it called a labor of love or work of His faith (understanding) . Another attribute is. God is Jealous .He owns all thing and will not share his glory with dying mankind . But His love as a attribute is not jealous. . it powerfully works in us to both reveal his will and empower mankind to perform it .. In the same way as the very essence of God . God is light and not that he cannot create it temporally (Sun and Moon) . God is Spirit. . not dying mankind. Three things the very essence.

Exodus 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

He hated Esau by not blessing him with his powerful love. He loved Jacob by blessing him

 

[Arial]

The problem with your thesis is that you are picking and choosing what to use to define God from the OT.

How am I doing that? I am including all that God says about Himself and all He says He does. I only chose a few instances as an illustration of things that are ignored when one defines God's love as being the supreme characteristic subordinating His other characteristics and attributes beneath love, and that according to the individuals definition of love as being equal in all its ways and to all people equally. And in doing this maintaining that according to love, God must give everyone an equal chance to be saved by their own will. So in order to be fair, it becomes mandatory of Him to also subordinate His will to man's will.

Are you now also prepared to agree that God repents of actions He has taken? Are you prepared to explain how an omnipotent God gets angry?

I do not agree that we can define repent when it is used in the Bible of God, according to our definition of repent as being sorry or changing ones mind, (anymore that we can do that with love). For the simple reason that then we would have God contradicting Himself as revealed. It is simply a use of language by those who only have language to express things.

I do not see any conflict between God getting angry and His omnipotence.

 

[Mr GLee]

The problem with your thesis is that you are picking and choosing what to use to define God from the OT. Are you now also prepared to agree that God repents of actions He has taken? Are you prepared to explain how an omnipotent God gets angry?

To repent is for God to comfort himself not taking into account a sin against Him as a work of His mercy.

Repent . . . comfort oneself to think differently or afterwards.

Two is the witness that God spoke .Two turnings. 1st. God working in a person to both will and do His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13) and having moved the object of his Love then the powerless person can repent and comfort his self. . knowing he has been forgiven, he hopes to put away the childish things and not act foolish next time

Note. . (Green ) my offering or comment

The repent commentary below to help understand the parable.

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim( un-redeemed mankind) bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me,( not he chastened God no man can turn him (Job 23) ) and I was (as a work of God) chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.(The one powerful enough to turn) Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Putting away childish things a life of work yoked with Christ the burden is lighter he is our confidence he promises if he has begun the god teaching work in us he will continue teaching us til the last day No confidence in the flesh it has no repenting power of its own.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Catholicism supplies the false power to repent coming through dying mankind seen the confessional booths THey are full hoping dying mankind has the power to forgive the eternal wage of sin .

Repentance is a work of God not seen.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

To repent is for God to comfort himself not taking into account a sin against Him as a work of His mercy.

To be clear, are you Saying that an omnipotent god who knows the end from the beginning needs to comfort himself?

Repent . . . comfort oneself to think differently or afterwards.

To be clear, are you also stating that God needs to think differently than he once did under certain circumstances?

Two is the witness that God spoke .Two turnings. 1st. God working in a person to both will and do His good pleasure (Philippians 2:13) and having moved the object of his Love then the powerless person can repent and comfort his self. . knowing he has been forgiven, he hopes to put away the childish things and not act foolish next time

Note. . (Green ) my offering or comment

The repent commentary below to help understand the parable.

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim( un-redeemed mankind) bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me,( not he chastened God no man can turn him (Job 23) ) and I was (as a work of God) chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.(The one powerful enough to turn) Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Putting away childish things a life of work yoked with Christ the burden is lighter he is our confidence he promises if he has begun the god teaching work in us he will continue teaching us til the last day No confidence in the flesh it has no repenting power of its own.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Catholicism supplies the false power to repent coming through dying mankind seen the confessional booths THey are full hoping dying mankind has the power to forgive the eternal wage of sin .

Repentance is a work of God not seen.

Do you think that because the old testament had many instances where God became angry that and omnipotent God who knows the end from the beginning can be angry just as a human Would?

Did not God pre-Destin everything by his sovereign power? These are some things that I am not clear about when it comes to Calvinism.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

How am I doing that? I am including all that God says about Himself and all He says He does. I only chose a few instances as an illustration of things that are ignored when one defines God's love as being the supreme characteristic subordinating His other characteristics and attributes beneath love, and that according to the individuals definition of love as being equal in all its ways and to all people equally. And in doing this maintaining that according to love, God must give everyone an equal chance to be saved by their own will. So in order to be fair, it becomes mandatory of Him to also subordinate His will to man's will.

I do not agree that we can define repent when it is used in the Bible of God, according to our definition of repent as being sorry or changing ones mind, (anymore that we can do that with love). For the simple reason that then we would have God contradicting Himself as revealed. It is simply a use of language by those who only have language to express things.

I do not see any conflict between God getting angry and His omnipotence.

So then you’re a Calvinist who does not believe that God sovereignly predestined everything? Because, it would be crazy for God to predestine something to happen and then become angry about it happening.

When God elected Israel was it his will that the entire nation should be saved?

 

[Arial]

So then you’re a Calvinist who does not believe that God sovereignly predestined everything? Because, it would be crazy for God to predestine something to happen and then become angry about it happening.

When God elected Israel was it his will that the entire nation should be saved?

I am not a Calvinist.

And as for the rest of your post I don't see how it relates in the slightest to what it is responding to. How any of it in any way could be considered an interactive response to my post.

Remember how unpleasant and frustrating that was when you tried to have a conversation with Studyman or the man from Australia (can't remember his name)?

 

[Arial]

These are some things that I am not clear about when it comes to Calvinism.

And you never will be until/unless you start listening to what they say and asking questions where you have them, treat as relevant and viable there exegesis of scripture and the way they put the whole counsel of God together in a consistent with itself way. So far you have shown no intention of doing so, and no interest in doing so.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I am not a Calvinist.

And as for the rest of your post I don't see how it relates in the slightest to what it is responding to. How any of it in any way could be considered an interactive response to my post.

Remember how unpleasant and frustrating that was when you tried to have a conversation with Studyman or the man from Australia (can't remember his name)?

The relationship that I intend it is quite simple. You are using part of the Old Testament to define the way God loves but if we are going to use part of the Old Testament to define how God loves then we must agree that the old testament is an authority on the nature of God and if the old testament is an Authority on the nature of God then all of the attributes of God that are demonstrated in it. I find that problematic if God is truly omnipotent.

I noticed several posters barking at the idea that repentance meant repentance when it came to God and they began to redefine repentance in regards to God. This kind of technique has its place if it is evenly applied. This is a very deep topic and deserves its own thread. But suffice it to say, pulling out examples from the OT to say that God does not love all people the same has its deficits.

Btw, do you no where old Studyman went off to?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I am not a Calvinist.

Which part of the Tulip do you find problematic?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

And you never will be until/unless you start listening to what they say and asking questions where you have them, treat as relevant and viable there exegesis of scripture and the way they put the whole counsel of God together in a consistent with itself way. So far you have shown no intention of doing so, and no interest in doing so.

Believe me this is not my first rodeo and is in fact the least interactions I have had with them. BFTI (before the Internet) I used to discuss TULIP in my seminary classes. There were as many different answers as there were Calvinists. The doctrines are very different if we view them from God’s point of view versus our point of view.

 

[Arial]

Believe me this is not my first rodeo and is in fact the least interactions I have had with them. BFTI (before the Internet) I used to discuss TULIP in my seminary classes. There were as many different answers as there were Calvinists. The doctrines are very different if we view them from God’s point of view versus our point of view.

We should view them from not only God's point of view but from who God is. I have not seen any evidence that you do that. And I do not mean that as a put down, but a statement of what I see and don't see. It doesn't matter how many answers you received from "Calvinists." It matters what those doctrines are and where they can be found and supported in the Scriptures. They are btw, the same doctrines in traditional orthodox Christianity. What you and the great majority of Christians teach are heresies from that. And there are no other truly Christian tenants established since. It is all hodge podge. Everyone believe what they want to believe and say scripture means whatever they want it to mean. Does that sound like what Christ intended for His church? Considering Paul's final instructions to his successor Timothy. 2 Tim 4:1-5 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing in his kingdom. I give you this charge: Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage---with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

Consider this Eph 2:19-21 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.

1 Cor 3:10-15 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw---each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

You have said you do not like to be labeled and do not label yourself.Yet you label others and you argue doctrine from a label on one side (Calvinism)and no label on the other. What one ought to do is the same thing that produced the doctrines of Christianity condensed in the confessions. Start somewhere as they did. "On God and the Holy Trinity." Who is man. Then through all the subjects that pertain to Christ and to salvation. And find out what the Bible says without over laying anything onto it.

 

[Josheb]

These are some things that I am not clear about when it comes to Calvinism.

Now that is a wonderful way to start a conversation.

To be clear, are you Saying that an omnipotent god who knows the end from the beginning needs to comfort himself?

Question warrants some clarification because... assuming God ever needs comfort Who would or could possibly provide such comfort?

To repent is for God to comfort himself not taking into account a sin against Him as a work of His mercy. Repent . . . comfort oneself to think differently or afterwards.

The word "repent" means "change." Nothing more. In the context of sin, the word carries the connotation of changing the way a person thinks and acts and doing something other than sin. Since God does not sin in thought, word, or deed, that connotation - a connotation that always applies to humanity - never applies to God. Furthermore, In verse like Genesis 6:6 where the KJV uses the word "repented" and the NAS uses "was sorry," the Hebrew word means to comfort or console oneself from sorrow, not the way we use "sorry" in modern times. God was sad, or sorrowful looking down upon the depravity of humanity and the ruin of creation.

The would be a good, normal, and healthy thing to feel sorrowful in those circumstances.

It is not a situation like we experience due to our sin. Any such anthropomorphizing is misguided.

To be clear, are you also stating that God needs to think differently than he once did under certain circumstances?

I, as a monergist, would not say that. The premise of "thinking differently," implies there is one single linear way of thinking and then there is another single linear way of thinking existing in comparison to the prior line of thought. A more accurate understanding of God's thinking is that He thinks diversely simultaneously at all times. God does not think like we think. God's thought is not limited to the limitations of time, space, or reason that exist in our minds.

Think of a pair of chess players each thinking through the moves in the game they are thinking. "If Guy does A, then I'll do X and if he does B then I'll do Y, and if he does C then I'll do Z," all the while Guy is thinking in exactly the same way with completely different As, Bs, Cs, Xes, Ys, and Zs. Each has their own line of reasoning with different constituent components. Now let's add ten chess masters looking over the shoulders of the first two. Now we have twelve lines of thought each occurring completely separate from each other. God knows all the thoughts of all the Grand Masters of chess who have ever existed for all of time plus a pile of chess knowledge those finite minds never conidered..... and He knows it ALL AT ONCE!!! Snapping your finger takes longer than God's knowledge of every possible chess move.

God thinks diversely simultaneously.

Even the premise of "think" has to be re-conceptualized when it comes to God because God is omniscient. He knows. What would "thinking" look like in an omni-attributed Being when it comes to our using the word "think" in regard to the creation He created? Is there anything the Creator doesn't already know from His omni-attributed position outside of creation where none of the limitations of time or sapce (or cause and effect exist?

The question needs to be re-thought and re-worded so that it is applicable to God.

Do you think that because the old testament had many instances where God became angry that and omnipotent God who knows the end from the beginning can be angry just as a human Would?

God can be angry and happy and sad and disgusted and loving simultaneously. Furthermore, a report of anger (or joy, or sadness, etc.) occurring consequent to or correlated with an event in creation does not mean the finite temporal event caused God's affect. Correlation is not causation. Given the fact humanity has been corrupt since Genesis 3:6 I can easily believe God is constantly angry and on an order of magnitude consistent with eternity that we could not scratch the surface of understanding. Similarly, because God has always had a good, sinless, righteous and holy purpose for creation I can just as readily believe He is also always and everywhere joyous any and every time He peers into creation. Since He does know the beginning from the end and His will is accomplished, I am also confident He feels infinite satisfaction along with the immeasurable joy and anger He always feels.

I'll give everyone a moment to get their head around that.


Because.....

I doubt God's affect has much comparison to ours. The report of scripture is true and correct to all that is speaks but to what it speaks is the creature's creaturely understanding. It is, therefore, also quite possible the report of divine affect is a temporal expression of a divine IS that also co-occurs with an omni-lack-of-bother (whatever we might call that). I was going to say "omni-meh," but I don't think God is unconcerned.

Did not God pre-Destine everything by his sovereign power?

Depends on what you mean by "pre-destine."

One of the authoritative documents of Calvinist theology is the Westminster Confession of Faith (WCF) and Article 3.1 of the WCF states God ordained all things from eternity YET He did not author sin, and what He ordained did no violence to the human will, nor did it do violence to the contingency of secondary causes, BUT it established them. Subsequent articles state "some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death" and these individuals "thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished." Furthermore, Article 3.5 states,

"Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory, out of His free grace and love alone, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace."[/]i​

If this is true (and many think it incorrect) then ALL the mentions of God's affect should be read in the context of His omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipotence. When God looks down on humanity in Genesis 6:6 He already knows what will be done and how it will turn out both in that century, in our century, and in the final century. Thinking guides thought and affect is exactly comparable to ours, or ours exactly comparable to His is misguided.