God`s Eternal Purposes.

[Marilyn C]

Hi Carbon, and others,​

I read this from the link posted on another thread. I would like to respond to some of the notes.

ARTICLE 7: ELECTION​

Election [or choosing] is God’s unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:

Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation.

And so he decided to give the chosen ones to Christ to be saved, and to call and draw them effectively into Christ’s fellowship through his Word and Spirit. In other words, he decided to grant them true faith in Christ, to justify them, to sanctify them, and finally, after powerfully preserving them in the fellowship of his Son, to glorify them.

God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.

As Scripture says, “God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved” (Eph. 1:4–6). And elsewhere, “Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified” (Rom. 8:30).

My Comments -

God says - `Give no offence, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (nations) or to the church of God,..` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

We know from God`s word that He created the nations from Noah and His family. Later God called out another nation for Himself, Israel, from the other nations. Then after Christ ascended to the Father He was made Head of another group that was called out from Israel and from the nations - the Body of Christ.

Thus, God recognizes - nations, Israel and the Body of Christ.

1. The above notes on `election` only deals with those who come to Christ after His ascension.

God in His foreknowledge destined those who came into Christ to `be conformed to the image of His Son.` (Rom. 8: 29) This is only possible by the Holy Spirit who enables the believer to partake of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1: 4)

Those pre-cross did not have this privilege. Those like Abel etc (Heb. 11) were given the promise of the city, and by obeying God for that they were accounted righteous. (Heb. 11: 13 - 16)

Then there are those who never received any promise but obeyed their God-given conscience and will be judged according to their works. (Rev. 20: 13)

2. The Chosen. God`s mercy is for the `whosoever.` Thus when someone responds to the Spirit drawing them to God it is like `going through a door which has `whosoever ` on the front. Then when they go through and look back they see on the inside of the door, `Chosen` in Christ before the foundation of the world.

God is not partial, but according to His eternal purpose in Christ in the `fullness of the times he may gather in one, (harmony) all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth - in Christ,` all under His authority.

A grand topic.

 

[Eleanor]

Hi Carbon, and others,​

I read this from the link posted on another thread. I would like to respond to some of the notes.

ARTICLE 7: ELECTION​

Election [or choosing] is God’s unchangeable purpose by which he did the following:
Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, he chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. He did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation.

And so he decided to give the chosen ones to Christ to be saved, and to call and draw them effectively into Christ’s fellowship through his Word and Spirit. In other words, he decided to grant them true faith in Christ, to justify them, to sanctify them, and finally, after powerfully preserving them in the fellowship of his Son, to glorify them.

God did all this in order to demonstrate his mercy, to the praise of the riches of his glorious grace.
As Scripture says, “God chose us in Christ, before the foundation of the world, so that we should be holy and blameless before him with love; he predestined us whom he adopted as his children through Jesus Christ, in himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, by which he freely made us pleasing to himself in his beloved” (Eph. 1:4–6). And elsewhere, “Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified” (Rom. 8:30).
My Comments -
God says - `Give no offence, either to the Jews or to the Greeks (nations) or to the church of God,..` (1 Cor. 10: 32)
We know from God`s word that He created the nations from Noah and His family. Later God called out another nation for Himself, Israel, from the other nations. Then after Christ ascended to the Father He was made Head of another group that was called out from Israel and from the nations - the Body of Christ.
Thus, God recognizes - nations, Israel and the Body of Christ.

1. The above notes on `election` only deals with those who come to Christ after His ascension.

All God's one people, going all the way back to Abraham Ro 11:16-23), are the church, the body of Christ.
If you are in Christ, you are the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).

 

[Marilyn C]

All God's one people, going all the way back to Abraham Ro 11:16-23), are the church, the body of Christ.
If you are in Christ, you are the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).

Christ is the promised seed of Abraham, but we are not of Abraham only of Christ. Christ died, rose and ascended to the Father. He now has a glorified body, and we will have similar. Nothing of Abraham will enable us to have that - from an incorruptible seed.

It is the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent after His ascension that makes us like Christ. Those who had gone before that do not have the privilege of that.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Christ is the promised seed of Abraham—but we are not of Abraham, only of Christ.

"Understand that those who believe are the sons of Abraham" (Gal 3:7; cf. v. 29, "if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise").

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

We know from God's word that he created the nations from Noah and his family. Later, God called out another nation for himself, Israel, from the other nations. Then, after Christ ascended to the Father, he was made head of another group that was called out from Israel and from the nations, the body of Christ. Thus, God recognizes (a) nations, (b) Israel, and (c) the body of Christ.

I can't engage your argument because it takes for granted a view that I find problematic, both biblically and theologically. More to the point, I suspect that, if you approached the question with a different presupposition, the Canons of Dort would read with more systematic and biblical coherence and self-consistency.

Your post seems to presuppose a kind of dispensationalist view. Not only are there good reasons to reject that view itself, but the Reformed faith which produced the Canons of Dort in the seventeenth century held to covenant theology (which was in the process of being developed, Clark 2015). Therefore, it is more likely that the Canons of Dort presuppose covenant theology than dispensationalism, especially since the latter view didn't appear on the historical scene until the nineteenth century (ca. 1820).

As for what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:32, what if the distinction he was drawing was between (a) unbelieving Jews (Judaism) and Greeks (paganism) on the one hand and (b) believers in the church on the other (cf. v. 27)?

 

[Marilyn C]

"Understand that those who believe are the sons of Abraham" (Gal 3:7; cf. v. 29, "if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to the promise").

When Jesus said, `You are of your father the devil,...` (John 8: 44) does that mean they were physical offspring of Satan?

The word `son` can mean physical or figuratively. Being the `sons of Abraham` relates to his faith.

`Therefore know that only those who are OF FAITH are sons of Abraham.` (Gal. 3: 7)

We are born not of Abraham`s physical seed but of incorruptible seed through the word of God.

`...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. `(1 Peter 1: 23)

 

[Marilyn C]

I can't engage your argument because it takes for granted a view that I find problematic, both biblically and theologically. More to the point, I suspect that, if you approached the question with a different presupposition, the Canons of Dort would read with more systematic and biblical coherence and self-consistency.

Your post seems to presuppose a kind of dispensationalist view. Not only are there good reasons to reject that view itself, but the Reformed faith which produced the Canons of Dort in the seventeenth century held to covenant theology (which was in the process of being developed, Clark 2015). Therefore, it is more likely that the Canons of Dort presuppose covenant theology than dispensationalism, especially since the latter view didn't appear on the historical scene until the nineteenth century (ca. 1820).

As for what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 10:32, what if the distinction he was drawing was between (a) unbelieving Jews (Judaism) and Greeks (paganism) on the one hand and (b) believers in the church on the other (cf. v. 27)?

I am not a dispensationalist. I do however read in God`s word that He made - the nations, Israel and the Body of Christ. God planned for each to have an inheritance in His great Kingdom. Thus, we read of how God created each group, how He deals with them over time and finally where they will go in eternity in His great kingdom.

An appeal to history is not always right. We know that Paul gave the whole counsel of God to the Ephesians, (Acts 20: 27) and that serious errors came in over time. (Acts 20: 29 & 30) Most truths we have today over the Body of Christ came over a period of time as the Holy Spirit brought clarification of truth.

`However, when He the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...` (John 16: 13)

I agree that Paul clearly shows a distinction between those 3 groups. That does not negate God`s purpose for each group in God`s own timing.

`Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. ` (Rom. 11: 28)

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

When Jesus said, `You are of your father the devil,...` (John 8: 44) does that mean they were physical offspring of Satan?

The word `son` can mean physical or figuratively. Being the `sons of Abraham` relates to his faith.

`Therefore know that only those who are OF FAITH are sons of Abraham.` (Gal. 3: 7)

We are born not of Abraham`s physical seed but of incorruptible seed through the word of God.

`...having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever. `(1 Peter 1: 23)

You said that "we are not of Abraham, only of Christ"—which was a categorical statement. I was simply correcting it. Scripture says that we ARE of Abraham, if we are of those who belong to Christ and believe. Obviously, that is in a figurative sense (whereas Christ is literally the promised seed of Abraham).

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I am not a dispensationalist.

Okay, I can accept that. However, your post is definitely presupposing a kind of dispensationalist view, as I said, even if it's not intended as dispensationalism (and now I refer to the remainder of my previous comment).

 

[Marilyn C]

You said that "we are not of Abraham, only of Christ"—which was a categorical statement. I was simply correcting it. Scripture says that we ARE of Abraham, if we are of those who belong to Christ and believe. Obviously, that is in a figurative sense (whereas Christ is literally the promised seed of Abraham).

`Therefore, know that only those who are OF FAITH are sons of Abraham.` (Gal. 3: 7)

I think the `of faith` part is needed otherwise people think we are all one people stemming back to Abraham. However, God`s word reveals that there are different inheritances for those `of faith. `

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

"Therefore, know that only those who are OF FAITH are sons of Abraham" (Gal. 3: 7).

You are quoting the scriptures that I called upon when correcting your statement. So, thanks for reposting that?

Yes, of course the "of faith" part is needed—and I included it when quoting Paul who said it.

Those who believe are the sons of Abraham, Paul said. Your New King James Version uses the alternative translation "of faith" instead of "believe," but they're both saying the same thing. If you belong to Christ, you're Abraham's descendants, Paul said.

You said that we are not of Abraham, that we are only of Christ. I wanted to correct your statement with what Paul said, namely, that we ARE of Abraham (and it's because we're of Christ).

 

[Marilyn C]

You are quoting the scriptures that I called upon when correcting your statement. So, thanks for reposting that?

Yes, of course the "of faith" part is needed—and I included it when quoting Paul who said it.

Those who believe are the sons of Abraham, Paul said. Your New King James Version uses the alternative translation "of faith" instead of "believe," but they're both saying the same thing. If you belong to Christ, you're Abraham's descendants, Paul said.

You said that we are not of Abraham, that we are only of Christ. I wanted to correct your statement with what Paul said, namely, that we ARE of Abraham (and it's because we're of Christ).

So DS, I am not trying to belabor this but if because we have faith like Abraham then figuratively we are `sons.` but NOT descendants. That would involve a lineage of human intervention.

Please tell me how you became `in Christ?` Was it because you are a descendant of Abraham?

Gal. 3: 29 And if you are Christ`s, then you are (of) Abraham`s seed, (Christ) and heirs according to the promise. `

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

So DS, I am not trying to belabor this but if because we have faith like Abraham then figuratively we are `sons.` but NOT descendants. That would involve a lineage of human intervention.

Your argument is with Paul, then, because he's the one saying that those in Christ are Abraham's descendants or offspring or family—and neither one of us meant it biologically.

 

[Marilyn C]

Your argument is with Paul, then, because he's the one saying that those in Christ are Abraham's descendants or offspring or family—and neither one of us meant it biologically.

So where does it say `descendants?

 

[Marilyn C]

I mean which translation has `descendants? `

 

[Eleanor]

Christ is the promised seed of Abraham, but we are not of Abraham only of Christ. Christ died, rose and ascended to the Father. He now has a glorified body, and we will have similar. Nothing of Abraham will enable us to have that - from an incorruptible seed.

It is the Holy Spirit that Jesus sent after His ascension that makes us like Christ. Those who had gone before that do not have the privilege of that.

In Christ we are the seed of Abraham and, therefore, inherit all the promises to Abraham (Gal 3:29).

 

[Ritajanice]

All God's one people, going all the way back to Abraham Ro 11:16-23), are the church, the body of Christ.
If you are in Christ, you are the seed of Abraham (Gal 3:29).

Seed of Abraham?...what does that mean?..I’ve got a lot to learn, go easy on me,

 

[Eleanor]

Seed of Abraham?...what does that mean?..I’ve got a lot to learn, go easy on me,

We are in Christ, who is a descendant of Abraham, and therefore, we are likewise spiritual discendants of Abraham.
It means that we are spiritually what Israel was, God's people, inheriting all of God's promises, that God has only one people going all the way back to Abraham, and all of them inherit all of God's promises.
It's the fulfillment of the OT in the NT.

 

[Ritajanice]

We are in Christ, who is a descendant of Abraham, and therefore, we are likewise spiritual discendants of Abraham.
It means that we are spiritually what Israel was, God's people, inheriting all of God's promises, that God has only one people going all the way back to Abraham, and all of them inherit all of God's promises.
It's the fulfillment of the OT in the NT.

Thank you @Eleanor ....you are a Bible encyclopaedia....I feel insignificant in my bible knowledge, when your around...

 

[Eleanor]

Thank you @Eleanor ....you are a Bible encyclopaedia....I feel insignificant in my bible knowledge, when your around...

Aw, shucks. . .(Americanism)