From Fallen Angels to Adam in the Garden

[Josheb]

I see it this way.....after God created He said everything was good. In fact very good. I believe you know the verse.
I say that to say this,
Psalm 148:2-5 tells us....God gave the command and they...the angels... were among what was created.
When were they created? I would say first...as they witnessed the creation of Gen 1. We can see that in Job 38:7 when God is talking to God about the creation and says....when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy.

The angels were there when the earth (Job 38:4) was created, not when creation was created. That is a very important detail. Genesis 1:1 states the heavens and the earth were created and verse 4 states the heavens were made on the second day, and in verses 9 and 10 we see the earth being made.

Genesis 1:7-10
7God made the expanse and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.

The heavens and their hosts were made on day 2 and the earth was made then next day. The angels were created on day 2 and they were present, rejoicing when God made the earth the next day.

Connecting more dots...

Well..... first go back and connect all the dots in Job 38 because the use of Job 38:7 in Post #45 is incorrect.

In Ezekiel 28:12 and onward... we read of a Cherub (angel) that was created....a beautiful angel that walk in the garden of Eden.
Then verse 15 speaks of wickedness being found in him.
Though this verse speaks of the King of Tyre the verse presents the King as a type of Satan...Using the King of Tyre Ezekiel describes Satan.
We know the verse speaks of much more than the man called the King of Tyre as the King of Tyre isn't a cherub. The King of Tyre wasn't in Eden the garden of God.
Verse 17 also mentions the guardian cherub was cast to the earth. Other verses in the bible describe this happening to Satan.

The simple conclusion is Satan walked in the Garden of Eden in an unfallen state...which means Satan fell sometime after day 7 and not prior to the creation of earth and the following 7 days....As mentioned above everything was created very good. This would include Satan as written about in the discription provided in Ezekiel 28.

Probably. Ezekiel 28 has Satan still adorned when he is in Eden and then cut down, cast down, and turned to ashes. The problem is that all the animals - which would include the serpent - were made by the sixth day. It is logically possible that Satan was made on the second day, walked in Eden still in his God-made glory on the sixth day and rebelled after God rested on the seventh day, thereafter, being cast down onto the earth to be further subdued and ruled by humans. But it is also logically possible for the rebellion to have occurred between days 2 and 6 and one of the reasons God commanded the dominion mandate was because of Satan's existence on the planet. Genesis 2 does not actaully state Eden was made after Adam was made. It appears that way, but a sequence is not stated.

Genesis 1 states vegetation was made on the second day. Humans were made on day 6. Genesis 2 has God making Adam and then making a garden into which He placed Adam. Genesis 1 states God examines ALL that He had made (not created; asah, not bara) was accomplished in six days. Therefore, when Genesis 2 lays out a timeline in which man is made and then placed in a garden and then the woman is made we necessarily understand that was all done in the first six days, specifically on the sixth day because after that God was done both creating and making. So the logical timeline is that the angels were created on day 2 and were present when God made the earth. Two days later humans were made and placed in the garden and God rested.

We know that the purpose given to Adam and Eve and, by extension, all their progeny was to subdue the earth and rule over it. The earth was desolate (void) but it was also good and already covered with vegetation, so the context of "dominion" command must, therefore, be about something other than planting crops. We must ask ourselves, "What is there to conquer if the planet and everything made thereon is good?" Perhaps something not-good was placed there, something that needed subduing. We know the serpent (Satan) was in the garden and Adam and Eve had authority and power to rule over him. In point of fact, the first command broken was not the eating of the forbidden fruit. The first command broken was the failure to subdue and rule over the serpent. Had Adam subdued the serpent he'd have never eaten the forbidden fruit. Adam did not disobey one command; he disobeyed ALL the commands.

You asked..."how could Satan in the form of a serpent be in the Garden of Eden?" This was after Satans fall. Satan fall occured sometime after creation.
Many have your view that you present..."I think they fell before the creation of our world."....
Those that have that view typically believe in a pre-Adamic world that was destroyed by "Satans flood" claiming the world "became" formless and void.

Anyway, that's where I've landed. Does it make sense?

It's not possible for Satan to have fallen prior to the creation of creation because he did not exist prior to the creation's being created. Satan is a created creature, part of the heavens and heavenly host that were made on the second day. He was there when the world was made, but not there when the heavens were made, and neither was he present when the works of the first day were made.

The foundation of a post-Eden rebellion is that everything God made was good, according to Genesis 1:31. It is possible that God could have looked His six days of work and viewed Satan's imprisonment and subjugation on earth as part of that goodness but that treads on a strictly utilitarian definition of goodness and that is going to run into conflicts with other scripture. God's ethic is not strictly utilitarian. The ends do not justify the means. So, it is, therefore, most likely God made a good heavens and a good earth with good creatures in each and Satan mucked up the heavens and Adam mucked up the earth and they two of them joined each other in death and misery, both of them having been stripped of their original glory.

One of them was to be redeemed unto salvation. The other was to be eradicated. Or, more accurately, some from among humanity would go through disobedience on their way to perfection, while ALL the rest (of both disobedient humanity and the disobedient heavenly host) would go through disobedience to a destructive purge.

 

[CrowCross]

The angels were there when the earth (Job 38:4) was created, not when creation was created. That is a very important detail. Genesis 1:1 states the heavens and the earth were created and verse 4 states the heavens were made on the second day, and in verses 9 and 10 we see the earth being made.

I see Gen 1:1 as an overview of what God did...then Genesis 2 moves into the details and the order and what God did.

Genesis 1:7-10
7God made the expanse and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day. 9Then God said, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10God called the dry land earth, and the gathering of the waters He called seas; and God saw that it was good.

Yes, God called the dry land earth...but in Gen 2 God mentions the earth in this fashion...Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. God called the formless and void "mass" earth...then in verse 10 expressed the earth as the dryland portion of the planet.
Earth has several nuances such as...land, earth, ground, lands, country, countries, world.

The heavens and their hosts were made on day 2 and the earth was made then next day. The angels were created on day 2 and they were present, rejoicing when God made the earth the next day.

I believe the angels (sons of God) watch the entire process.
I'm not dogmatic on this but, the angels could have been created when God said "let there be light".....as angels have been expressed as "light" in the bible. Then again this light might have been when God demonstrated his shekinah glory much like we see in Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Well..... first go back and connect all the dots in Job 38 because the use of Job 38:7 in Post #45 is incorrect.

Probably. Ezekiel 28 has Satan still adorned when he is in Eden and then cut down, cast down, and turned to ashes. The problem is that all the animals - which would include the serpent - were made by the sixth day. It is logically possible that Satan was made on the second day, walked in Eden still in his God-made glory on the sixth day and rebelled after God rested on the seventh day, thereafter, being cast down onto the earth to be further subdued and ruled by humans. But it is also logically possible for the rebellion to have occurred between days 2 and 6 and one of the reasons God commanded the dominion mandate was because of Satan's existence on the planet. Genesis 2 does not actaully state Eden was made after Adam was made. It appears that way, but a sequence is not stated.

The bible states the garden of Eden was made after Adam, then Adam was placed into the garden then Eve made from Adams "rib".
Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, where He placed the man He had formed. This is the chronological presentation in Genesis.

I don't see the logical possibility that Satan fell between verse 2 and 6 because after day 6 God said what He created was very good...if Satan fell prior to the statement made in Gen 1:31then the creation wan't "very good".

Genesis 1 states vegetation was made on the second day. Humans were made on day 6. Genesis 2 has God making Adam and then making a garden into which He placed Adam. Genesis 1 states God examines ALL that He had made (not created; asah, not bara) was accomplished in six days. Therefore, when Genesis 2 lays out a timeline in which man is made and then placed in a garden and then the woman is made we necessarily understand that was all done in the first six days, specifically on the sixth day because after that God was done both creating and making. So the logical timeline is that the angels were created on day 2 and were present when God made the earth. Two days later humans were made and placed in the garden and God rested.

Did you mean 4 days later?

We know that the purpose given to Adam and Eve and, by extension, all their progeny was to subdue the earth and rule over it. The earth was desolate (void) but it was also good and already covered with vegetation, so the context of "dominion" command must, therefore, be about something other than planting crops. We must ask ourselves, "What is there to conquer if the planet and everything made thereon is good?" Perhaps something not-good was placed there, something that needed subduing.

I believe Adam and Eves progeny were meant to expand beyond the garden of Eden and make, cultivate that outside the garden to be like the garden.

We know the serpent (Satan) was in the garden and Adam and Eve had authority and power to rule over him. In point of fact, the first command broken was not the eating of the forbidden fruit. The first command broken was the failure to subdue and rule over the serpent. Had Adam subdued the serpent he'd have never eaten the forbidden fruit. Adam did not disobey one command; he disobeyed ALL the commands.

The question often asked is was the serpent "possessed' by the fallen Satan or did Satan take the form of a serpent and approached Adam and Even in the familiar form of a serpent that Adam and Eve ruled over in an attempt to steal their dominion as part of his plan.

It's not possible for Satan to have fallen prior to the creation of creation because he did not exist prior to the creation's being created. Satan is a created creature, part of the heavens and heavenly host that were made on the second day. He was there when the world was made, but not there when the heavens were made, and neither was he present when the works of the first day were made.

I think that would depend on your interpretation of heaven.
In 2 Cor 12:2 Paul was taken up to the third heaven...which is where the throne of God is and already existed. The heavens mentioned in your scenario is believed by many to mean the sky where birds fly and the space where the stars are.

This makes me wonder about what Psalms 148:4 means....Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens!

The foundation of a post-Eden rebellion is that everything God made was good, according to Genesis 1:31. It is possible that God could have looked His six days of work and viewed Satan's imprisonment and subjugation on earth as part of that goodness but that treads on a strictly utilitarian definition of goodness and that is going to run into conflicts with other scripture. God's ethic is not strictly utilitarian. The ends do not justify the means. So, it is, therefore, most likely God made a good heavens and a good earth with good creatures in each and Satan mucked up the heavens and Adam mucked up the earth and they two of them joined each other in death and misery, both of them having been stripped of their original glory.

I suppose it's possible...but Satan isn't in prison now which makes me wonder about the accuracy of your statement.

One of them was to be redeemed unto salvation. The other was to be eradicated. Or, more accurately, some from among humanity would go through disobedience on their way to perfection, while ALL the rest (of both disobedient humanity and the disobedient heavenly host) would go through disobedience to a destructive purge.

That part I can accept.

 

[Josheb]

I see Gen 1:1 as an overview of what God did...then Genesis 2 moves into the details and the order and what God did.

Is there something scripture elsewhere states that you believe makes that position objective, or is that a subjective personal belief?

Yes, God called the dry land earth...but in Gen 2 God mentions the earth in this fashion...Now the earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep. God called the formless and void "mass" earth...then in verse 10 expressed the earth as the dryland portion of the planet.
Earth has several nuances such as...land, earth, ground, lands, country, countries, world.

I believe the angels (sons of God) watch the entire process.

Yes, but you believe that contrary to what is explicitly stated in the passage you quoted. The Ezekiel texts explicitly states, "the world," not "the creation." You will need to provide some other scripture support the posted position. A verse that states angels were created before creation is necessary. A verse that specifies the witness creation, and not just the world, being created is required. Otherwise, you are just adding to scripture things it nowhere states and doing so in contradiction to what is explicitly specified.

Consider this: Prior to my engaging your original Post in the divine intent thread I held to the belief Satan's fall into sin, his attempted coup, and his subsequent fall from glory occurred somewhere between Day 2 and Day 6. I've held that position for years. It was only upon critically examining every detail of your post and calling up as many scriptures pertaining to Satan's fall as I could in a timely manner that I realized your timeline for his fall was correct.

What is not correct is the notion Satan was created before creation. That sentence should give you pause because it necessarily implies a creation before creation. It implies two creations. It implies creation does not begin with God creating the heavens and the earth, or God saying, "Let there be light," because it begins with God creating angels before He created the heavens. The only way they could be there to witness the creation of the heavens and the earth is if they were created before then. The premise the angels were created before creation is self-contradictory and self-refuting. Your timeline is (probably) correct. Your starting point is not.

I'm not dogmatic on this but, the angels could have been created when God said "let there be light".....as angels have been expressed as "light" in the bible. Then again this light might have been when God demonstrated his shekinah glory much like we see in Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, because the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its lamp.

I'm glad you're not dogmatic about it because it's not a scripturally or logically viable position for the reasons I just posted.

The bible states the garden of Eden was made after Adam, then Adam was placed into the garden then Eve made from Adams "rib".

Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east, where He placed the man He had formed. This is the chronological presentation in Genesis.

Well, that is not exactly or specifically what the Genesis 2 text actually states but I am inclined to agree with that interpretation of what is stated. Remember: correlation is not necessarily sequence (or causation). Just because God or scripture states X and Y happened does not mean the Y is sequential to X. It's a simple statement of correlation.

Without additional information that is how such verses should be read.

I don't see the logical possibility that Satan fell between verse 2 and 6 because after day 6 God said what He created was very good...if Satan fell prior to the statement made in Gen 1:31then the creation wan't "very good".

Yep. The more I think about it the more I am inclined to agree. That portion about utilitarian ethics was intended to affirm that position.

Did you mean 4 days later?

Yes. My bad. Me do math .

I believe Adam and Eves progeny were meant to expand beyond the garden of Eden and make, cultivate that outside the garden to be like the garden.

I do, too, BUT that must be understood subsequent to and within the context of what is stated in verses like Genesis 1:11 and 1:29. The entire earth was covered with vegetation that already produced after its own kind.

The question often asked is was the serpent "possessed' by the fallen Satan or did Satan take the form of a serpent and approached Adam and Even in the familiar form of a serpent that Adam and Eve ruled over in an attempt to steal their dominion as part of his plan.

I have asked that same question. Whether Satan indwelt an already existing serpent animal or took on the form of a serpent does not matter because either way he is still a creature in the garden and God gave all the creatures (flora and fauna) to Adam. Furthermore, Satan can destroy Adam sovereignty without replacing Adam with himself. He'd be happy to have desolation alone. I am unaware of any verse stating his intent and caution should be taken assuming his heavenly aspirations transfer to earthly ones. If Revelation 9's "angel of the abyss" is Satan then he's known simply as a destroyer after his glory is stripped from him and he's cast down. A murderous, lying destroying adversary. The premise that he intends to build his own kingdom is questionable, if not openly contradictory to his ascribed identity. The same sort of dynamics apply to some of the pagan deities that are representative of Satan. A kingdom of the Lord of the Flies isn't actually a kingdom. It's the antithesis of a kingdom.

I think that would depend on your interpretation of heaven.

Not heaven. Heavens. The Hebrew word most often used for heaven/heavens is also translated as "sky" or "skies." While that could be understood as a reflection of ancient mythology (where the gods lived in the air above earth), that mythology is negated in the New Testament and any definition of heaven/s has to be consistent with whole scripture (such as 2 Cor. 12:2) . The implication of Genesis 1:1 is that the heavens (plural) are distinct from the earth. Modern cosmology makes it clear the earth is a spherical planet spinning around in a huge expanse and scripture cannot be made to contradict the facts of reality (granting our knowledge thereof is still profoundly limited).

Scripture specifies it was the earth they witnessed being designed and created, not the heavens.


Job 38:4-7
4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5Who set its measurements? Since you now. Or who stretched the measuring line over it? 6On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7When the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?"

The "its" in verse 6 refers to the earth in verse 4. There's no statement the angels witnessed the creation of the heavens. Psalm 33 (and other places in the OT) place the creation of the heavenly host alongside the creation of the heavens, not beforehand.

Psalm 33:6
By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And by the breath of His mouth all their host.

And Genesis 1 places that in Day 2.

Genesis 1:6-8
6Then God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” 7God made the expanse, and separated the waters which were below the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so. 8God called the expanse heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Heaven was made on Day 2. It could be argued the heavenly host, or "lights" of the heavens were made on day 4 because the angels are often referenced as lights of heaven throughout the psalms. Heaven was made on Day 2. The inhabitants of heaven were made on Day 4. To further elaborate on the distinction between heaven and earth we are told the heavens are God's throne and the earth is His footstool. They are distinct pasrt of the same creation.

In 2 Cor 12:2 Paul was taken up to the third heaven...which is where the throne of God is and already existed. The heavens mentioned in your scenario is believed by many to mean the sky where birds fly and the space where the stars are.

No; that is not what my scenario would say about that verse. I hope this post clarifies that matter.

This makes me wonder about what Psalms 148:4 means....Praise Him, you heavens of heavens, And you waters above the heavens!

Let's try to establish some consensus before speculating on that.

I suppose it's possible...but Satan isn't in prison now which makes me wonder about the accuracy of your statement.

I disagree and don't see how that is germane. Perhaps you'd care to establish a single theses for this thread so we both know what wer are and are not supposed to be discussing .

That part I can accept.

Yes, and that is how I tied all this back to the matter of redemption and the covenant thereof. I, apparently, was not sufficiently clear because the post was deemed off-topic. Redemptively speaking, creation (and the earth as part of that creation) has to be redeemed from Satan and his effects. Aside from the fact one of those effects is the indirect fall of Adam into sin, that aspect of redemption has nothing to do with Adam. God's not planning on having a new heavens and earth with sinfully dead and enslaved demons running around in it. If not a single human had ever been created that would still be the case. Scripture explicitly states one of the reasons Jesus came was to undo the works of the devil and his works are not limited to Adam's fall into sin. Most of his "work" is done among humanity but he lays waste to everything he touches. His existence on the earth is something to be eradicated and his effects redeemed. He, personally, receives no redemption, and only some of humanity do so. But the earth and the heavens are entirely restored.


Gimme a thesis statement.