Finney’s comeback

[Carbon]

Is Charles Finney making a comeback.

I’ve read on some forums where so many agree with Finney on the atonement.
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.

Justification by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is not only absurd, says Finney, but undermines all motivation for personal holiness.

How often do we see these beliefs?

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.


Thought? Comments?

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone....

What did Finney teach in regards to faith being part of salvation?

 

[ReverendRV]

What did Finney teach in regards to faith being part of salvation?

Please read the OP. He would have to say it again, to answer you. We do not want to have to waste a lot of time at this Forum...

 

[Carbon]

What did Finney teach in regards to faith being part of salvation?

The part you quoted isn't important to you? Im curious

 

[David1701]

Is Charles Finney making a comeback.

I’ve read on some forums where so many agree with Finney on the atonement.
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.

Justification by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is not only absurd, says Finney, but undermines all motivation for personal holiness.

How often do we see these beliefs?

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.


Thought? Comments?

Finney was an extreme legalist, who travelled about preaching, with an RC priest as his "intercessor".

 

[Carbon]

Finney was an extreme legalist, who travelled about preaching, with an RC priest as his "intercessor".

A heretic. IMO

 

[David1701]

A heretic. IMO

I agree; in fact, I've read that some people think that his preaching might have been partly responsible for the petering out of the revival that was ongoing in America, in Finney's time.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Please read the OP. He would have to say it again, to answer you. We do not want to have to waste a lot of time at this Forum...

I did read OP; it makes no mention of faith. Would like to know the context of Finney's statements.

 

[PeanutGallery]

The part you quoted isn't important to you? Im curious

Would like to know the context of the OP's statement, "Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.... "; did it mention of faith?

 

[praise_yeshua]

Is Charles Finney making a comeback.

I’ve read on some forums where so many agree with Finney on the atonement.
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.

Justification by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is not only absurd, says Finney, but undermines all motivation for personal holiness.

How often do we see these beliefs?

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.


Thought? Comments?

Finney was very inconsistent in his teachings. He often contradicted himself.

 

[Carbon]

Would like to know the context of the OP's statement, "Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.... "; did it mention of faith?

Finney taught man has free will.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Finney taught man has free will.

OK; but then, did Finney mention faith within the context of OP's statement, "Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.... "?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Is Charles Finney making a comeback.

I’ve read on some forums where so many agree with Finney on the atonement.
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.

Justification by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is not only absurd, says Finney, but undermines all motivation for personal holiness.

How often do we see these beliefs?

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.


Thought? Comments?

I agree in part with Finney, but not everything.

I agree that:

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience.

I disagree with the comment:

Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.

I believe our justification comes as a result of the cross alone, not our deeds.

Gal 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

Gal 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

But I do believe that if we get sloppy in our faith we can lose it.

1Co 10:7-12 And do not become idolaters as were some of them. As it is written, "THE PEOPLE SAT DOWN TO EAT AND DRINK, AND ROSE UP TO PLAY." Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor complain, as some of them also complained, and were destroyed by the destroyer. Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

Rom 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

 

[CrowCross]

Is Charles Finney making a comeback.

I’ve read on some forums where so many agree with Finney on the atonement.
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.

Justification by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is not only absurd, says Finney, but undermines all motivation for personal holiness.

How often do we see these beliefs?

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.


Thought? Comments?

"Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified."

Thought? Comments?


I pretty much disagree as this now open up the concept of salvation by works.

Concerning works, I see works as a by-product of ones salvation...justification.
Eph 2:10 tells us.... 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

As Christians we have the choice of doing God good works prepared for us...our salvation isn't dependent of doing these works but rather "rewards" are dependent on doing.

1st Cor 3:10 and onward explains this principle.
10According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilledb master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. 11For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

If you notice verse 15 says....If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

 

[TB2]

A heretic. IMO

Which part of the gospel message did he deny?

 

[Carbon]

Which part of the gospel message did he deny?

Which part? Start with saved by grace. But, if your interested, it's easy access online.

 

[TB2]

Which part? Start with saved by grace. But, if your interested, it's easy access online.

I'm curious about your own point of view. You said in your opinion you think he's a heretic. I was wondering what makes you say that. (We should probably define heresy first. I take heresy to mean someone who is so wrong doctrinally that he/she is not actually a Christian (e.g., denying the gospel message of Christ's death and resurrectio, denying Christ's deity and that He is Lord of All, the only way of salvation. Someone who still believes in Jesus as Lord and Savior and still teaches the fundamentals of the gospel message I'd still be inclined to see as a believer, not a heretic. That of course doesn't mean a believer can't have seriously flawed doctrine or seem to support seriously flawed doctrine (like Peter, even, according to Paul in Galatians). But I probably wouldn't label them a heretic. But you might define heresy in a different way.)

 

[ppierac]

Is Charles Finney making a comeback.

I’ve read on some forums where so many agree with Finney on the atonement.
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.

Justification by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is not only absurd, says Finney, but undermines all motivation for personal holiness.

How often do we see these beliefs?

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.


Thought? Comments?

You kinda have to let scripture tell you....

If Finney said " the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified."
I don't know what Bible/translation he was reading... Let's review....

Put these 2 simple versed in context...

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."

Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [ the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].


Let's see how scripture supports this view....

NET 1Co 12:3 So I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

NASB 1Co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father." (Supported by 1Co 12:3)

NASB 2 Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


NASB Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

NASB Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws (DRAGS) him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

NASB Joh 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
NASB Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You (God) have given Him (Jesus), He (Jesus) may give eternal life.
NASB Act 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Not all are chosen...

ESV Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will
call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"

simple version... CEV Rom 9:15 The Lord told Moses that he has pity and mercy on anyone he wants to. 16 Everything then depends on God's mercy and not on what people want or do. 17 In the Scriptures the Lord says to Pharaoh of Egypt, "I let you become king, so that I could show you my power and be praised by all people on earth." 18 Everything depends on what God decides to do, and he can either have pity on people or make them stubborn. 19 Someone may ask, "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?" 20 But, my friend, I ask, "Who do you think you are to question God? Does the clay have the right to ask the potter why he shaped it the way he did? 21 Doesn't a potter have the right to make a fancy bowl and a plain bowl out of the same lump of clay?" 22 God wanted to show his anger and reveal his power against everyone who deserved to be destroyed. But instead, he patiently put up with them. 23 He did this by showing how glorious he is when he has pity on the people he has chosen to share in his glory. 24 Whether Jews or Gentiles, we are those chosen ones, 25 just as the Lord says in the book of Hosea, "Although they are not my people, I will make them my people. I will treat with love those nations that have never been loved.

Jesus told and showed us this in action....
NASB Mar 4:11 And he said to them, "To you has been given the secret of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables, 12 so that indeed see but not perceive, and may indeed hear but not understand, lest they should turn and be forgiven."

I just don't see any truth in Finney's comments in relation to scripture that.... "Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified."
NASB Rev 17:14 "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful."
NASB Tit 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

CEV Tit 3:5 He saved us because of his mercy, and not because of any good things that we have done. God washed us by the power of the Holy Spirit. He gave us new birth and a fresh beginning.

These verses make you uncomfortable... because you do not understand the coming Kingdom!!! The above verses are not about who gets into heaven or hell... but the coming kingdom!!!

Act 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?"

God is Love... do the verses above support this..... Indeed... the chosen of God will reign with the Christ for 1000 years!!!
Then comes the End....

1Co 15:25 For He must reign until He (Jesus) has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He (Jesus) says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He (Jesus) is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him (God). :28 When all things are subjected to Him (God), then the Son (Jesus) Himself also will be subjected to the One (GOD) who subjected all things to Him (Jesus), so that God may be all in all.

my 2 cents
Paul

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Is Charles Finney making a comeback.

I’ve read on some forums where so many agree with Finney on the atonement.
Finney taught it is true, that the atonement, of itself, does not secure the salvation of anyone.

Justification by the imputation of Christ’s righteousness is not only absurd, says Finney, but undermines all motivation for personal holiness.

How often do we see these beliefs?

Finney also said, the new birth is not a divine gift but the result of a rational choice to turn from sin to obedience. Christians can perfectly obey God in this life if they choose, and only in this way are they justified.


Thought? Comments?

PERSONALLY. I'm not familiar with Finney, BUT I know better than to take seriously any analysis of him, or his ministry from a supporter of a different theological paradigm.

 

[justbyfaith]

I will only say that whatever else you think of Finney, that two of his sermons, taken on their own merit, do effectively refute some of the doctrines of hyper-Calvinism.