ETERNAL TORTURE - #3

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Reformation Rumblings
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
______________

Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
[PART III]​

This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquires, "Why doesnt the Bible say, And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life' "?

Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that destruction and perish are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish--that is, cease to exist.

Such is the meaning of perish. The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.

To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perishbe extinguished. The results (extinction) will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death--eternal death (Rom. 6:23). Johns Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a second death (2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8). The term second death is not used elsewhere in scripture.

The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take second death at face value, or even symbolical, the second death of the ungodly will be eternal punishmen--textinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.

But what about Mark 9:43-44, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched? Our Lord used the literal fire of the garbage dump (Gehenna), just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.

The worm, the fire, and not quenched are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched--stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! (Incidentally, a few versions do not contain verse 44, where the worm does not die.)

A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement where the worm does not die is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus time on earth.

Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing: Immortality was not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only.​

 

[atpollard]

"Perish" is not "cease to exist" and "eternal punishment" with "crying and gnashing of teeth" is not "cease to exist". They are descriptions of what is illustrated in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man ... he burned but did not cease to exist. That is "eternal punishment" and "torment" as Jesus described the fate of those that "reject so great a salvation" [to quote Hebrews].

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Reformation Rumblings
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
______________

Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
[PART III]​

This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquires, "Why doesnt the Bible say, And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life' "?

Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that destruction and perish are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish--that is, cease to exist.

Such is the meaning of perish. The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.

To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perishbe extinguished. The results (extinction) will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death--eternal death (Rom. 6:23). Johns Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a second death (2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8). The term second death is not used elsewhere in scripture.

The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take second death at face value, or even symbolical, the second death of the ungodly will be eternal punishmen--textinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.

But what about Mark 9:43-44, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched? Our Lord used the literal fire of the garbage dump (Gehenna), just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.

The worm, the fire, and not quenched are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched--stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! (Incidentally, a few versions do not contain verse 44, where the worm does not die.)

A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement where the worm does not die is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus time on earth.

Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing: Immortality was not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only.​

ADDITIONAL THOUGHTS by BUFF SCOTT, JR.

​

Here is something else to consider. I would reference to you that hanging a man is eternal punishment. But his hanging is over within a minute or two. The loss of physical life on earth is eternal. Endless punishment for this man, as is understood by many, is keeping him alive and hanging him over and over. Yes, the man has received eternal punishment in that the results of his hanging is forever. He does not have to be kept alive and hung endlessly for it to be eternal punishment.

I might remind you that the divine record, which was given to us for information and guidance, describes God’s character in detail. He is merciful, loving, compassionate, tolerant, humble, meek, and awesome. True, we do not know many things about our God, but we do know a lot about Him.

Inasmuch as your level of mercy and my level of mercy don’t even compare to the depth of God’s mercy, we are compelled to ask, Would such a merciful God torment a person endlessly? We’re talking about trillions of years, as measured by our time. Could a merciful and compassionate God do this?​

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

ETERNAL TORTURE - #3 - New reply to watched thread

​ "Perish" is not "cease to exist" and "eternal punishment" with "crying and gnashing of teeth" is not "cease to exist". They are descriptions of what is illustrated in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man ... he burned but did not cease to exist. That is "eternal punishment" and "torment" as Jesus described the fate of those that "reject so great a salvation" [to quote Hebrews]. ______ ETERNAL TORTURE - #3 - New reply to watched thread​ ​ atpollard: Thanks for your remarks, but I don't feel your conclusions coincide with the biblical facts. For example, let me repeat what I said above. ​ "Here is something else to consider. I would reference to you that hanging a man is eternal punishment. But his hanging is over within a minute or two. The loss of physical life on earth is eternal. Endless punishment for this man, as is understood by many, is keeping him alive and hanging him over and over. Yes, the man has received eternal punishment in that the results of his hanging is forever. He does not have to be kept alive and hung endlessly for it to be eternal punishment."--Buff​

 

[atpollard]

atpollard: Thanks for your remarks, but I don't feel your conclusions coincide with the biblical facts. For example, let me repeat what I said above.

You present a perfectly reasonable and logical argument. It is just "contra-Biblical" and must be rejected on those grounds as "reasonable" but "false" ... like Universalism (because "God is love" and it is "not His will that any should perish").

UNQUENCHABLE FIRE

• [Mat 3:10-12 NASB20] 10 "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore, every tree that does not bear good fruit is being cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 "His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
• [Mat 7:19 NASB20] 19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
• [Mat 13:40 NASB20] 40 "So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
• [Mat 18:8 NASB20] 8 "And if your hand or your foot is causing you to sin, cut it off and throw it away from you; it is better for you to enter life maimed or without a foot, than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into the eternal fire.
• [Mat 25:41 NASB20] 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
• [Mar 9:43, 48 NASB20] 43 "And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life maimed, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire. ... 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT EXTINGUISHED.
• [Luk 3:9, 17 NASB20] 9 "But indeed the axe is already being laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." ... 17 "His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."
• [Jhn 15:6 NASB20] 6 "If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

MATTHEW 25: The Judgment

31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.​

32 And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, just as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left.​

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You as a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of Mine, you did it for Me.’​

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you accursed people, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or as a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [fn]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

Why did Jesus mislead us by using the EXACT same word - "ETERNAL" - for life and punishment. Are the angels destroyed, too? That seems like eisegesis.


Why does the WORM not die and why is the FIRE not extinguished?

• [Mar 9:47-48 NASB20] 47 "And if your eye is causing you to sin, throw it away; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be thrown into hell, 48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT EXTINGUISHED.

Perhaps, because the torment does not end?


LUKE 16: The Rich Man and Lazarus

19 “Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, enjoying himself in splendor every day.​

20 And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed from the scraps which fell from the rich man’s table; not only that, the dogs also were coming and licking his sores. 22 Now it happened that the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s arms; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. 24 And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set, so that those who want to go over from here to you will not be able, nor will any people cross over from there to us.’ 27 And he said, ‘Then I request of you, father, that you send him to my father’s house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not come to this place of torment as well.’ 29 But Abraham *said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 But he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”​

Why did Jesus lie about the fate of the Rich Man?

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Reformation Rumblings
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
______________

Endless Conscious Torment vs. Immortality
[PART IV]​

In my last column, I noted, Let it be said that Satan is real. Hell is real. Eternal or everlasting punishment is real. But not endless torture [torment]. God is a God of mercy and compassion. He is not a Master Torturer [tormentor]. Nothing could be as cruel and brutal as subjecting someone to excruciating torture [torment] forever.

But let me address another phase of this subject. One reader spoke of a conscious, endless separation from the God of creation, which he asserted is endless punishment. I suggested that he might wish to consider that immortality was assigned to believers onlyfollowing biological death.

I have checked the scriptures on immortal or immortality. Of the seven places the term is used, it is applied either to God or to believers. Apparently, it was never intended for the ungodly. Yet if the ungodly suffer an endless conscious separation from the glory of God, as he indicated, theythe ungodlyhave immortality, a matter the scriptures do not seem to support. So, my deduction is:

The ungodly deserve to be punished for rejecting their Creator. And they will be. But once justice has been served, out of mercy the punishment must end. If I understand the scriptures correctly, eternal destruction should be taken at face value, which, in the long-run, will be annihilationnot uninterrupted torture (torment).

They [the ungodly] will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might (2 Thess 1:9).​

I received numerous responses relative to the last column—some agreeable, others disagreeable. The question largely ignored or simply by-passed by those who responded has been, How could a merciful and compassionate God allow anyone to be consciously tormented throughout eternity—endlessly?” To put it in another light, if you and I had the power to create a human life and that life rebelled against us, could we sentence him to an eternity of never-ending torment—without parole? I do not doubt but that you and I would choose mercy over justice. Gods mercy is far deeper, wider, and higher than ours, as per the scriptures.

One reader chastised me for coming over as someone who knows all about God’s nature. I explained to him that the divine testimony reveals a great lot about our God’s nature and that two of His characteristics are mercy and compassion.

I like the way the apostle Paul phrased it when he addressed the disobedience of Jews and Gentiles. He wrote, “For God has consigned all to disobedience, that He may have mercy on all” (Rom.11:32). In another letter, Paul describes God as being rich in mercy (Eph. 2:4). And James says that mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13).

But whichever way it goes in the end, our Lord is in control and He will do as He wishes. He is the potter, we are the clay. “Who are you, O man, to answer back to God?”(Rom. 9:20).​

 

[TibiasDad]

Reformation Rumblings
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
______________

Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
[PART III]​

This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquires, "Why doesnt the Bible say, And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life' "?

Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that destruction and perish are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish--that is, cease to exist.

Such is the meaning of perish. The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.

To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perishbe extinguished. The results (extinction) will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death--eternal death (Rom. 6:23). Johns Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a second death (2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8). The term second death is not used elsewhere in scripture.

The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take second death at face value, or even symbolical, the second death of the ungodly will be eternal punishmen--textinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.

But what about Mark 9:43-44, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched? Our Lord used the literal fire of the garbage dump (Gehenna), just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.

The worm, the fire, and not quenched are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched--stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! (Incidentally, a few versions do not contain verse 44, where the worm does not die.)

A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement where the worm does not die is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus time on earth.

Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing: Immortality was not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only.​

If we are created in God’s image, then, like him, we are created to eternally exist and never cease to exist.

Death is separation; physical death is separation of the spirit and the body, and spiritual death is separation from God and all his goodness. Eternal spiritual life and death is the separation or lack thereof from God and his goodness. It is not cessation of existence or being, but the cessation of hope and peace.

I think that the literalness of
“unquenchable fire” can be questioned , but not the literalness of the suffering that it experienced. If the imagery is not literal, then the reality is much worse than human understanding can verbalize.

There cannot be weeping and nashing of teeth forever, unless there are those with tears/eyes and teeth and a sense of awareness of their circumstance existing forever and ever.

The cessation of existence is not a curse or negative thing. Those who hold to universalism are logically in the same camp as those who adhere to annihilation. They both hold that eternal separation from God is impossible.

The account of the rich man and Lazarus paints a picture that denies the annihilation notion.

Doug

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

If we are created in God’s image, then, like him, we are created to eternally exist and never cease to exist.

Death is separation; physical death is separation of the spirit and the body, and spiritual death is separation from God and all his goodness. Eternal spiritual life and death is the separation or lack thereof from God and his goodness. It is not cessation of existence or being, but the cessation of hope and peace.

I think that the literalness of
“unquenchable fire” can be questioned , but not the literalness of the suffering that it experienced. If the imagery is not literal, then the reality is much worse than human understanding can verbalize.

There cannot be weeping and nashing of teeth forever, unless there are those with tears/eyes and teeth and a sense of awareness of their circumstance existing forever and ever.

The cessation of existence is not a curse or negative thing. Those who hold to universalism are logically in the same camp as those who adhere to annihilation. They both hold that eternal separation from God is impossible.

The account of the rich man and Lazarus paints a picture that denies the annihilation notion.

Doug

Doug:

Thank you for your input. I think I have pretty well covered, either directly or indirectly, these matters in my threads of this topic.

Take care & God bless.

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug:

Thank you for your input. I think I have pretty well covered, either directly or indirectly, these matters in my threads of this topic.

Take care & God bless.

Frankly, your OP covered very little and you have not answered my questions. That is your right, of course, and you can do as you wish, but I must say that I find your thinking inconsistent with us being created in God’s image and likeness.

Doug

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Doug:

I apologize if I have overlooked a question you submitted. Send me the question and/or questions and I will gladly respond to them sometime later this afternoon.

 

[TibiasDad]

Doug:

I apologize if I have overlooked a question you submitted. Send me the question and/or questions and I will gladly respond to them sometime later this afternoon.

The primary question is, as I’ve stated, if we are created in the image and likeness of God, then we are eternal in existence, incapable of not existing. If we cannot cease to exist, how can we be annihilated?

Secondarily, how can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth forever if all are destroyed? There would be no one there with eyes to cry and teeth to gnash.

Lastly, there is nothing negative about being annihilated. One might say “hey, If I reject God I’ll just be annihilated and cease to be.” The attempt to have your cake and eat it too by having a period of punishment and then being annihilated out of existence and consciousness is telling as to your creativity to make things fit!

The human choice to reject fellowship and relationship with God becomes an everlasting choice. God gives us this choice, and he respects and honors that choice. If they want to be without him, then that’s their choice and the just consequences will follow. God created us to be eternally with him, he doesn’t change our being eternal in nature. He has warned us ahead of time, but we chose not to believe him! Thus, he allows us our choice and its consequences in their entirety.


Doug

 

[Buff Scott Jr.]

Doug:

Thanks for resubmitting your questions and comments. I'll see what I can do with them.

QUESTION— "If we are created in the image and likeness of God, then we are eternal in existence, incapable of not existing. If we cannot cease to exist, how can we be annihilated?"

MY ANSWER— The part of us created in the image and likeness of God is our spirit, the real person. "God is a spirit, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth," the scripture says. It is the believer's spirit that is eternal. From the scriptures I have offered thus far in the threads on this topic, the ungodly will be destroyed forever.

QUESTION— "Secondarily, how can there be weeping and gnashing of teeth forever if all are destroyed? There would be no one there with eyes to cry and teeth to gnash."

MY ANSWER— We cannot attribute immortality to the ungodly. Your postulation cannot be biblically authenticated. Only God has immortality. “...who alone has immortality” [I Tim. 6:16]. A future immortality, however, is ascribed to believers [Rom. 2:7, 1 Cor. 15:54, plus other passages]. Immortality is not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only. Yet if the ungodly are exposed to endless conscious torment, or be "weeping and gnashing of teeth forever" [a figurative expression], they, too, will have immortality—the very opposite of what heaven’s testimony affirms. Currently, while in the flesh, believers have immortality but in prospect or promise only. Unbelievers are not endowed with immorality in any sense, for their very existence will be extinguished. Actually, this phase has been covered in my threads.

QUESTION— "Lastly, there is nothing negative about being annihilated. One might say 'hey, If I reject God I’ll just be annihilated and cease to be.' The attempt to have your cake and eat it too by having a period of punishment and then being annihilated out of existence and consciousness is telling as to your creativity to make things fit!"

MY ANSWER— Is that what you would think if you were an ungodly person? This idea was presented and enlarged upon in one of my threads. If you wish, I will look for it and get it to you. This is why I said earlier that all or at least most of what you're asking is covered in one of the threads on the topic.

Regarding your final paragraph, if your child lived a corrupted life and violated every moral and spiritual principle, and was sentenced to be hanged over and over, non-stop, but you had the power to stop the incessant hanging and let him die forever, would you rescue him from his continual punishment? Yes, the choice was his, not yours, but as a loving father, would you terminate the punishment forever? Think about it, Doug.​

 

[TibiasDad]

The part of us created in the image and likeness of God is our spirit, the real person.

Which is precisely why we are eternally existent after our creation.

Only God has immortality. “...who alone has immortality” [I Tim. 6:16].

Immortal is because he is uncreated and thus, has always existed. God is the only absolutely eternal being. His immortality is based on himself, while ours is based on him. He gives us what is his, and what is his does not change. He makes us like himself, and what he is cannot change. He cannot cease to exist, and neither can we. The circumstances of our existence can change, but not the state of our existence.

Doug

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Reformation Rumblings
BUFF SCOTT, JR.
______________

Extinguishing The Ungodly Forever
[PART III]​

This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

My position, of course, is that the ungodly will experience a final, ceaseless existence. He inquires, "Why doesnt the Bible say, And the wicked will cease to exist, while the righteous will inherit eternal life' "?

Well, it actually does, but not in those exact words. It is interesting that destruction and perish are never applied to the righteous. Their eternity will be endless life and eternal bliss. But not so with the wicked. They will suffer eternal destruction, or, as Jesus puts it in John 3:16, they will perish--that is, cease to exist.

Such is the meaning of perish. The destruction of the ungodly will be eternal in that it will never be reversed or altered. Their eternal punishment will be the absence of life, away from the glory of God and the exquisite paradise He has prepared for the righteous.

To be a little repetitious just here, the wicked will perishbe extinguished. The results (extinction) will be eternal, never-ending. Paul says the wages of sin [for the ungodly] is death--eternal death (Rom. 6:23). Johns Revelation speaks of the ungodly undergoing a second death (2:11, 20:6, 20:14, and 21:8). The term second death is not used elsewhere in scripture.

The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take second death at face value, or even symbolical, the second death of the ungodly will be eternal punishmen--textinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.

But what about Mark 9:43-44, where the worm does not die and the fire is not quenched? Our Lord used the literal fire of the garbage dump (Gehenna), just outside of Jerusalem, to bolster His point on the awfulness of being rejected in the end. Although that fire burned most of the time, yet it was only temporary.

The worm, the fire, and not quenched are mere symbols, and each typifies the horrific fate of the ungodly prior to their being extinguished forever. The eternal extinction of the wicked will not be quenched--stamped out or smothered. It will be endless! (Incidentally, a few versions do not contain verse 44, where the worm does not die.)

A number of commentators, including the late Adam Clarke, note that Mark 9:44 is the last verse in Isaiah. They all say the statement where the worm does not die is a figurative expression, which was common among the Jewish people. Apparently, it was still a figurative utterance in Jesus time on earth.

Regardless of the meaning of Mark 9:43-44, one thing seems to be quite convincing: Immortality was not appropriated to the ungodly, but to believers only.​

Nice theory. But actually nothing but "Word Games". "Annihilationism" is the fond HOPE of those who aren't sure of their salvation. I fear they're in for an really ugly surprise.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Which is precisely why we are eternally existent after our creation.

You are confusing the pre-fall condition of mankind created after God's likeness with Adam's condition AFTER the fall when death and separation ensued. Ever since, any human from conception onward has inherited this same state of death after the likeness of the fallen Adam.

For the believers, (as @Buff Scott Jr. is emphasizing above), God imputes Christ's own immortality to them so that they are enabled to live an immortal existence after a bodily resurrection. Those who are not the elect do not have this immortal condition, since they are not "in Christ".

The "unquenchable fire" is the constant stream issuing forth from before God's throne, as in Daniel 7:10. Just because this fire is an unceasing stream does not mean that those who are consumed by it have an unceasing, tormented existence. The Source of that fire is eternal, not those who are burned up by it.

 

[Mr GLee]

This controversial issue has prompted a host of responses, both positive and negative. One of my readers responded to my sentiments by referring me to the words of our Lord in Matthew 25:46. The verse reads, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment never to rise to new spiritual life .

The writings in Revelation are highly symbolic, but if we take second death at face value, or even symbolical, the second death of the ungodly will be eternal punishmen--textinction. Let it be repeated again that if the ungodly are kept alive endlessly while being tormented, they have not died, the opposite of what Paul and the Lord say.

Yes the second death (it is appointed to mankind to die once) . no retrials double jeopardy

The second death. .the death of death. . the letter of the law God(thou shalt not or you will surely die and never rise to new life) The instrument of judgement with with its daily suffering of a living hell.

Yoked with Christ he makes that burden lighter and promises a new body that will not being subject to the letter of the law.