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Eternal Generation of the Son?

prism

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I'm in a bit of a fog on this one and can use a bit of help
 
I'm in a bit of a fog on this one and can use a bit of help
Generations (plural) are beginnings. In that way there are two Genesis's, the corrupted one seen the generation that became corrupted when God saw pride in the heart of lucifer And the creation not seen the new heavens and earth that will appear on the last day under the sun the generation of the Son of man

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
These are the generations (plural) of the heavens and of the earth when they (plural) were created, in the day (singular) that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

The generation of Jesus the Son of man beginning with a Jewish heritage Abraham.

Mathew 1: The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Mixed with the seed of the second born in order to bring the first born of sons of God, which all believers are.

The second born seed is used to represent all born again from above . . beginning with Abel who was replaced with Seth needed to pass on the spiritual seed( Christ) warning us not to be yoked with the seeds of the flesh (temporal things seen )

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed of whom Cain slew.And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

The two seeds the eternal (Christ) and temporal the Son of man must be mixed.
 
Generations (plural) are beginnings. In that way there are two Genesis's, the corrupted one seen the generation that became corrupted when God saw pride in the heart of lucifer And the creation not seen the new heavens and earth that will appear on the last day under the sun the generation of the Son of man

Genesis 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
These are the generations (plural) of the heavens and of the earth when they (plural) were created, in the day (singular) that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

The generation of Jesus the Son of man beginning with a Jewish heritage Abraham.

Mathew 1: The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;

Mixed with the seed of the second born in order to bring the first born of sons of God, which all believers are.

The second born seed is used to represent all born again from above . . beginning with Abel who was replaced with Seth needed to pass on the spiritual seed( Christ) warning us not to be yoked with the seeds of the flesh (temporal things seen )

Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed of whom Cain slew.And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.

The two seeds the eternal (Christ) and temporal the Son of man must be mixed.
I never heard of that explanation, I‘ve only heard of this sort of thing ..that the Father eternally communicates the divine essence to the Son without division or change so that the Son shares an equality of nature with the Father (sharing all the attributes of deity) yet is also eternally distinct from the Father.
I’ve never heard of a temporal issue mixed into anything.
 
I'm in a bit of a fog on this one and can use a bit of help
Greetings prism~

Here's an outline that I did a few years back when addressing this on another forum, maybe this will help~part one:

Question #1~
Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

The answer to that questions is NO! So how can one believe in eternal Sonship of Jesus Christ? A Sonship relationship that was before the biblical testimony of Luke 1:11-35. I must stand upon God's own testimony of the conception of the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of Man.

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensibly define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

I want to give you not only reasons why we reject the eternal Sonship, but would like to ask you, or anyone some questions, I have about ten or so. Consider:

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. I would like to consider a few reasons why I know that the eternal Sonship position is a serious error.

Reason #1~The Eternal Sonship is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd. Why do not people consider this, and understand it? Acts 28:25-27 is the answer.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

Reason #2~
If Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.

The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation.

We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!

The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.

The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man.

I have more to come to prove that Jesus was not a Son before Genesis 1:1. Why I am preparing more reasons, one quick question for I readers: "Who was Jesus' eternal mother?" I have heard many discombobulated expressions trying to prove the eternal Sonship doctrine, by men whom I have respect toward, that one wonders~ "why Sir, do you not just stay with the scriptures and save yourself the shame of showing your ignorance of spiritual things".

Jesus became the Son of God at the same time he became the Son of man. We have the word of God to support that witness that we just gave. Yet, man's witness goes against God's testimony concerning his Son. As for me and my house, we will believe God's own testimony over man's.

Question #3~ "What part of Jesus Christ was derived from God?"

Surely not his Divine Nature! if One God can be derived, why not many? Many Mighty Gods and Everlasting Fathers, (there not many, but ONE, revealed to us as three, according to their work in the affairs of creation, and the salvation of the elect seed of Jesus Christ) many first Causes, and last End of all things! The Eternal Spirit of God is not capable of diminution or divisibility, that is an impossibility. This would be going against what his word teaches us, that we should have no other gods before Him.

Pagans believed in the power of propagation of their gods, we as Bible Christians do not. The Bible demands belief in nothing of this kind, relative to our heavenly Father.
 
Part two:

Question #4~
"Is it so, that there are many representations in the scriptures that teach that the Godhead in some mysterious sense is three, yet essentially ONE?"

It is very much so. "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen" 2 Corinthians 13:14....The holy scriptures teaches us that in some mysterious scriptural sense, the Godhead are three, yet we know that there are titles, found in the scriptures of the name of God, that can be applied to each one of them individually, interchangeable, and equally. This is very important to remember. In innumerable scriptures, God, and Christ, are spoken of as two persons, yet are presented in an essential unity as one; so that each may affirm, that there is no other God besides Himself. This is important to remember. There are not two distinct Gods~together, they are ONE God!

The Divine nature of Christ, does all that God does equally~he is not absent; nor is he another God, but and the same God! And Yet, there is a personal and real distinction between God the Eternal Spirit, and Jesus his Son. The deity of Jesus Christ is not and cannot be excluded from any transactions done by God before the creation of the world, during the OT times before the birth of Jesus, and throughout eternity. They are essential ONE and CAN NOT be separated into two or three.

When we read that the Son created the worlds, then we understand that that is speaking of his Divine Nature ONLY, of being the I am THAT I AM. This is not really too deep, just following God's own witness to us concerning these things and giving the scriptures their proper senses.

When reading such scriptures as 1 Peter 1:11; 1 Corinthians 10:4-5; Romans 8:9; and 1 Peter 3:18-19; and others, then we understand that Jesus, the Son of God and the Son of Man (which is used twice as many times as the Son of God in the bible) was a complex person, both God, and man, and the Divine Nature of Jesus Christ is none other than the One and True God that is from everlasting to everlasting, and these two in the word of God are essentially and scripturally by God's own testimony ONE.

Question #5~ "Can the Most High thus address a derived, dependent being, as God, without establishing idolatry?"

Absolutely not! Yet the Most High God did address his Son as God.

Hebrews 1:8~ Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne O God, is forever and ever."

So, Jesus is the Son, yet is God that shall reign forever and ever. That will come to pass the scriptures that are written: "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." Matthew 5:8 and many more~Rev. 21:3,22,23; Rev. 22:3,4,9,16,19-20.

Question #6~ "Did Paul, or any other apostles, or prophets, ever lead us to believe that Jesus and God, were not essentially one." Never! But, what they taught us plainly was that Jesus was indeed God blessed for ever. Paul said these words: Whose are the fathers, of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever." ~Romans 9:5

Question #7~"Can a derived and dependent person be Almighty?"

Most certainly not! Yet, Jesus was the mighty God promised by the prophets as we read from Isaiah 9:6. Jesus called himself the Almighty, listen to his own words: "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:1:8

If Jesus was the beginning of all things, and he was, then he was not the eternal Son, because, the word son, by definition, proves a beginning~if he is Almighty, and he is, then no one is greater than he is, none. He alone will be worshiped in that world to come, for he will reign as King forever more, world without end.

Question #8~From the great work, which was assigned to Jesus Christ, light is cast upon this important subject at hand. So we ask the conscience of every person taught in the sentiments of the gospel~Was not an infinite atonement necessary and demanded, according to the word of God, to take away our sins?" Again, "was not the righteousness of a perfect man, whose righteousness was equal to God, necessary to avail for sinful and lost man; in order to redeem him from sin and condemnation and to give the redeem person an entitlement to eternal life? Only Jesus Christ, who was both the Son of God, and as well, the Son of Man, could have been that perfect atonement for our sins. It was by one man that sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and death passed upon all men, because all sinned in their father Adam. Jesus Christ was that perfect man, for he was the Son of God, begotten by him in the womb of a virgin named Mary.

We have the record of his birth recorded for us in the holy scriptures. The only record /witness, that we have of God's Son coming into being the Son of God, there is not another, but the one recorded in Luke 1. Any other witness is a lie and only vain speculations of man not receiving the witness of the Spirit of God, but are guilty of following what others teach concerning the Sonship of God's holy child.

Question #9~"Did Jesus Christ have a beginning?~Or, in order for us to help those who reading this to better follow God's word/witness to us, concerning His Son, we could ask also ask this question, with the one at the beginning of this sentence: Did Jesus have a beginning?"

The scriptures very carefully divide and protect the identity of Jesus Christ; and so should we. The questions above demand for us to stay within the bounds of the scriptures, as we should always do, to find our answers; for the answers to our questions are: yes and no.

Most should know that the name of Christ, speaks to his deity, and proves that he was indeed the Son of the Living God; whereas Jesus, is his earthly name, and speaks and proves his humanity. There was, and can be, only one Jesus Christ; for God had only one begotten Son, begotten by the power of the Highest in a womb of a virgin woman of Adam's race, named Mary.

Jesus Christ had no beginning! The scriptures are very plain concerning this truth.

1 John 1:1..."That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life."

This scripture gets lost among people's favorites, yet this scripture is powerful to the regenerate mind and lover of the word of God.

The God that created all things that have always been from the beginning, or from eternity, made himself visible, to human beings in the person of His Son, whom he had begotten, by his Spirit in the womb of Mary. The Infinite, Glorious Spirit, purpose and planned every perfect detail of his holy event~"God was manifested in the flesh"~ seen of angels, (for the first time!) and preached unto sinners, and allowed men like John to lay his head on his chest, and allowed sinners to even spit in his face! I cannot even begin to express, nor do I have the ability, to express in words, how great our God is, and the length he went to redeem his chosen race!

John said it so plain: "that which was from the beginning." There is no room for debate; Jesus Christ was the Word of Life, that had no beginning! The eternal Sonship doctrine by definition goes against the scriptures before us. By definition, (as we have proven,) that eternal and son cannot be used together, for son, by definition, brings with it a beginning, or words cease to have any meaning, and anyone can use words to teach anything!

1 John 2:13a.... "I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning...."

John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS GOD."

In 1 John 1:1~John called Jesus Christ, the Word of life. Paul said by him all things consist, for he created all things, for he alone is the Word of Life. Paul said again, "Who is the image of the invisible God-" Colossians 1:15

Jesus Christ is not the second person of the Trinity~HE IS GOD! period! He was not conceived in the beginning~he was God FROM THE BEGINNING that created all things!

John 1:13.... "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

God was made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ. The Word was not begotten by the power of the Highest, Jesus, the Son of God was begotten. The Word that was from the beginning, joined himself to the tabernacle (fleshly body of Jesus) and lived among men. The Eternal Spirit of God never ceased to be who he is~A SPIRIT that inhabiteth eternity, who rules over all of his creation! Read Isaiah 57:15 and John 4:24!!

Jesus had a beginning, and it is clearly revealed for us in the NT from Luke 1. We know his mother and who his suppose father~Joseph. We know where he lived and where he died. Jesus was fully man and fully God, and two natures never interfere with his work of redemption but worked in perfect harmony to accomplish God's eternal purpose which he purposed in himself. Eph. 1:9
 
I never heard of that explanation, I‘ve only heard of this sort of thing ..that the Father eternally communicates the divine essence to the Son without division or change so that the Son shares an equality of nature with the Father (sharing all the attributes of deity) yet is also eternally distinct from the Father.
I’ve never heard of a temporal issue mixed into anything.
Hi Thanks It's a private interpretation or personal commentary. I call it a invaluable gospel tool need to rightly divide the finished will of God writen down. It seemed to jump off the page one of those rare occurrences.

I do not try to be different I am. God has made men different for what does any man have that he not received from our Faithful Creator .If we have received it from the hand of God why would we boast as if not received it ?

You could say moved by the spirit of unity the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of faith same faith that works as the mutual power of God in all born again from above . Verse 18 the mixing formula needed to bring the gospel rest (sabbath) spoken of in Hebrews 4:1-2

2 Corinthians 4:13-18 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

They (eternal with temporal) must be mixed to see the whole vision hid in a parable

It seems two is used to represent God spoke . the dynamic Dual Pow bang Wow, Crash LOL The father and the Son. demonstration power
 
@Red Baker , thank you for all that. I see you had posted the same on Reddit about a year ago.
Could you briefly explain just where the debate lies? Is it between the eternal incarnation (a seeming oxymoron), and eternal generation (another seeming oxymoron)? They both seem like hopeless human constructs.
 
Hi Thanks It's a private interpretation or personal commentary. I call it a invaluable gospel tool need to rightly divide the finished will of God writen down. It seemed to jump off the page one of those rare occurrences.

I do not try to be different I am. God has made men different for what does any man have that he not received from our Faithful Creator .If we have received it from the hand of God why would we boast as if not received it ?

You could say moved by the spirit of unity the Spirit of Christ the Spirit of faith same faith that works as the mutual power of God in all born again from above . Verse 18 the mixing formula needed to bring the gospel rest (sabbath) spoken of in Hebrews 4:1-2

2 Corinthians 4:13-18 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

They (eternal with temporal) must be mixed to see the whole vision hid in a parable

It seems two is used to represent God spoke . the dynamic Dual Pow bang Wow, Crash LOL The father and the Son. demonstration power
Thanks, I count all that is outside Scripture as 'private interpretation', but posts #4 & #5, were more along the lines, I was thinking of. (but even they were a private interpretation of sorts).
 
@Red Baker , thank you for all that. I see you had posted the same on Reddit about a year ago.
Could you briefly explain just where the debate lies? Is it between the eternal incarnation (a seeming oxymoron), and eternal generation (another seeming oxymoron)? They both seem like hopeless human constructs.
I will before I leave to go out of town.

Yes I do have a Reddit forum. I had posted it back during the latter part of 2022 I believe. https://www.reddit.com/r/OldPaths/

If it is against any rule for posting my account, then please remove it. I would never have mentioned it except you said you read it on there.

I use that account mainly for young believers.
 
If it is against any rule for posting my account, then please remove it.
I don't believe that would be against any rule, since it's your own work, besides I don't have the authority to remove it, even if it was against forum rules.. :)
 
I was speaking to the moderators ~ yes, it was my own work yet, with the help of other godly men, one of which was of the Armenian faith!
 
Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

And we ask~"How can eternal generation of the Son of God be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"? We shall prove that this is an impossibility and a contradiction of terms used in the eternal Sonship defense.

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.
I look at the relationship of the father and Son of man reckoned as two. A dynamic dual Three would be a crowd in that way. I reject the idea of trinity .Three has it place to denote the end of a matter .One deity revealed by non deity the Son of man Jesus

The Spirit of Sonship the Holy Spirit of adoption that works mutually in all sons of God by which we can cry out Abba Father. It is the Holy Spirit of God as the lamb of God slain from the foundation the six days the father did work demonstrated it thousands of years later using three days and nights
 
I look at the relationship of the father and Son of man reckoned as two. A dynamic dual Three would be a crowd in that way. I reject the idea of trinity .Three has it place to denote the end of a matter .One deity revealed by non deity the Son of man Jesus
Okay, this discussion is on the Eternal Generation of the Son, please keep it on topic.
 
@Red Baker , thank you for all that. I see you had posted the same on Reddit about a year ago.
Could you briefly explain just where the debate lies? Is it between the eternal incarnation (a seeming oxymoron), and eternal generation (another seeming oxymoron)? They both seem like hopeless human constructs.
I'm leaving early this morning for a grandson's wedding, be back the first part of the week ( the Lord willing ) and I will address this more.
 
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