Consistent Understanding Of God's Omniscience In Three Layers:

[CCShorts]

Let's break down God's omniscience into three layers:

Layer One:
God's Perfect Eternal Knowledge of Himself

In the first layer, God possesses perfect, eternal knowledge of Himself. This knowledge includes an understanding of His own nature, attributes, and the full scope of His omnipotence. God's omniscience within this layer encompasses all possibilities, both possible and impossible, given His omnipotent nature. This means He knows what He can and cannot do, making Him all-powerful and all-knowing within His own divine essence.


Layer Two:
God's Plan and Purpose for Creation

The second layer of God's omniscience relates to what He planned, purposed, and determined to create and sustain in the timeline of creation. In this layer, God's knowledge extends beyond Himself to encompass His divine intentions for the timeline of creation and all that exists within it. This includes His foreknowledge of the structure of the universe, the course of events, and His plan for every thing that is not identified as God Himself. God's omniscience in this layer underpins His role as the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

Layer Three:
God's Knowledge of All Created and Sustained Things

The third layer of God's omniscience involves His knowledge of all things created and sustained at all moments, based on the first two layers. In this layer, God's omniscience extends to every detail of the created universe, from the grandest cosmic events to the minutest occurrences in every corner of existence. He knows the past, present, and future of every entity and event. This layer ties together His perfect self-knowledge and His divine plan for creation, allowing Him to have an all-encompassing understanding of all that transpires in the universe.


These three layers of God's omniscience collectively represent His all-knowing nature, which includes His knowledge of Himself, His divine plan, and His intimate knowledge of all created and sustained things.

...

 

[Josheb]

I'd add one: God's knowledge of all things knowable

Creation is The First Cause and God is The Causal Agent of the first cause, but no one denies the existence of secondary causes, their contingencies, and conditional effects. Many things occurred subsequent to creation's creation, some of which were not made by God (such as sin) and God knows them all.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

He knows the past, present, and future of every entity and event. This layer ties together His perfect self-knowledge and His divine plan for creation, allowing Him to have an all-encompassing understanding of all that transpires in the universe.

I beg to differ. When did God suddenly get this knowledge in the following scripture?

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

It was not "before creation", because if He had that knowledge He would not have created man. It was not "after He initiated the creation", for he would not have been surprised by the event, He would have already prepared His heart for it. Rather the LORD looked and "saw".

The fact is God does not have perfect knowledge of every event, He just has the power to direct lives in such a way as to have His overall plan fulfilled.

The LORD adjusts the plan to suit the circumstances. As we see in:

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."

Man used to live, 600 years. But God realized that the long life span did not lead to repentance. He only needed 120 years, to determine if a man would follow Him. So He changed His design/plan, and shortened man's days.

 

[CCShorts]

I'd add one: God's knowledge of all things knowable

I believe that is implied in the three layers.

You see before God determined there to be any "thing" other than God to be known, God himself was "all things knowable" at that moment. As soon as God determined another thing to be "knowable" it became a part of the "all things knowable" and God knew it at that same moment. There was never a moment where God did not know "all things knowable".

Creation is The First Cause and God is The Causal Agent of the first cause,

I agree that creation is the first cause of all things that occur in the timeline of creation (In the beginning God created)...

However to suggest a "thing" Originated on the third layer and then the information traveled in reverse order bact to the second or first layer of God's knowledge is an Open Theist position that denies God's second layer Foreknowledge of "all things" before the foundation of the world.

but no one denies the existence of secondary causes, their contingencies, and conditional effects.

I agree but these are all part of God's created cause and effect order of the timeline of creation. Like an Author of a book pre plans, purposes, and determines all things that occur in his story and there are storyline level reasons (secondary causes) as to how things occur within the story. Secondary causes are not to be confused with the Ultimate cause of "all things".

"Secondary causes" are not disconnected causes. They are part of the predetermined created causes.

Many things occurred subsequent to creation's creation,

I agree but it's crucial to understand that nothing in the third layer of existence can transition to the next moment of existence independently; it is entirely dependent on God's causative power in accordance with the first two layers:

Divine Causative Power:
In this framework, God's causative power is the driving force behind every change and transition in the third layer of existence. This power is not arbitrary but aligns with God's knowledge (first layer) and divine plan (second layer). Everything that happens in the timeline of creation, from the motion of celestial bodies to the actions of living beings, occurs because of God's causative power.

Divine Sustenance:
God's power extends beyond mere creation. It also includes the sustaining of all things. Nothing can exist or continue to exist independently of God's sustaining power. This means that at every moment, God's power is necessary to uphold and maintain the existence and functioning of every thing in the universe.

Alignment with Divine Purpose:
God's causative power ensures that every moment in the third layer aligns with His divine purpose (second layer). There is a grand design and order to creation, and God's power ensures that everything contributes to this divine plan.

Theological Consistency:
This concept aligns with many theological beliefs that emphasize God's omnipotence, providence, and sovereignty over creation. It is consistent with the idea that God is the ultimate source of all change and existence.

In summary, nothing in the third layer of existence can transition to the next moment of existence independently; it is entirely contingent on God's causative power, which operates in harmony with His knowledge and divine plan. This understanding underscores the profound role of God in every aspect of creation and continued existence.

some of which were not made by God (such as sin) and God knows them all.

This is where we differ as I disagree that sin is a "thing" created/made by God or man.

Man did not "make" sin... man commits sin (actions that violate God's law for created man)

"Sin" is a description of actions that occur in the the timeline of creation (third layer). Actions that can not occur independent of God's power (first layer) or foreknowledge (second layer). No "thing", including actions described as "sin", originates on the third layer sending information backwards to the second or first layer. God is the Originator of "all things" including those things that are identified as not God.

Like the Author of a book is the Author of all things that occur in his story but the Author is not identified as the character acting in the story. Who committed the action? The character. Who pre planned, purposed, and determined the occurance of that character committing that act described as "sin"? The Author of "all things".

...

 

[CCShorts]

I beg to differ. When did God suddenly get this knowledge in the following scripture?

God does not learn or gain "knowledge" in or from the timeline of creation.

To suggest that God could "suddenly get knowledge" apart from him determining his own knowledge of things is an Open Theist position that reverses the order of the travel of information.

Essentially this denies God's knowledge before creation... requiring creation first so as to send information backwards to God... or have God learn as time unfolds.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

It was not "before creation", because if He had that knowledge He would not have created man. It was not "after He initiated the creation", for he would not have been surprised by the event, He would have already prepared His heart for it. Rather the LORD looked and "saw".

First, it's essential to understand that God's omniscience means He knows everything, including the past, present, and future. This concept is supported by several Bible verses. For instance, in Isaiah 46:10, it is written, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'" This verse demonstrates God's knowledge of the future and His preordained plan.

When the Bible uses language like "God saw" or "God knew," it's not suggesting that God's knowledge is limited or reactive. Instead, it's revealing His active involvement in His creation. For example, in Genesis 1:4, it says, "God saw that the light was good." This doesn't mean God discovered it was good; it indicates that He designed and ordained it to be good.

Moreover, when the Bible speaks of God's interactions within the timeline of creation, it's part of the narrative, highlighting His providence and involvement in every detail. In Jeremiah 1:5, God says, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." This affirms that God's knowledge and plan are intertwined. His knowledge is not passive but intricately connected to His divine purpose.

God's omniscience extends beyond the creation timeline. When the Bible uses terms like "God saw" or "God knew," it emphasizes His intentional, preplanned, and purposed interactions within His creation. These references do not deny His overarching sovereignty but illustrate His active involvement in His divine story.

...

 

[FutureAndAHope]

God does not learn or gain "knowledge" in or from the timeline of creation.

To suggest that God could "suddenly get knowledge" apart from him determining his own knowledge of things is an Open Theist position that reverses the order of the travel of information.

No. It is based on the Bible. As Genesis shows clearly.

Essentially this denies God's knowledge before creation... requiring creation first so as to send information backwards to God... or have God learn as time unfolds.

Yes as time unfolds God learns.

First, it's essential to understand that God's omniscience means He knows everything, including the past, present, and future.

But is it biblical truth or just your opinion, based upon your doctrine? It is not biblical at all.

This concept is supported by several Bible verses. For instance, in Isaiah 46:10, it is written, "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'" This verse demonstrates God's knowledge of the future and His preordained plan.

It does not demonstrate that at all. It just shows God has enough power, wisdom, and knowledge to control how things will ultimately turn out.

When the Bible uses language like "God saw" or "God knew," it's not suggesting that God's knowledge is limited or reactive. Instead, it's revealing His active involvement in His creation. For example, in Genesis 1:4, it says, "God saw that the light was good." This doesn't mean God discovered it was good; it indicates that He designed and ordained it to be good.

But the verses show clearly God's knowledge IS limited. That is how God made things.

Moreover, when the Bible speaks of God's interactions within the timeline of creation, it's part of the narrative, highlighting His providence and involvement in every detail. In Jeremiah 1:5, God says, "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." This affirms that God's knowledge and plan are intertwined. His knowledge is not passive but intricately connected to His divine purpose.

God does have a plan for each of us. But as with David God altered the plan when David sinned. God gives us choices.

Jer 18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Even Jeremiah had moments where he could have lost his calling.

Jer 15:19 Then the LORD told me: Stop talking like a fool! If you turn back to me and speak my message, I will let you be my prophet once again. I hope the people of Judah will accept what you say. But you can ignore their threats.

Even though the LORD had said:

Jer 1:5 Before you were formed in the body of your mother I had knowledge of you, and before your birth I made you holy; I have given you the work of being a prophet to the nations.

God's omniscience extends beyond the creation timeline. When the Bible uses terms like "God saw" or "God knew," it emphasizes His intentional, preplanned, and purposed interactions within His creation. These references do not deny His overarching sovereignty but illustrate His active involvement in His divine story.

...

Not according to this:

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."[/quote]

 

[Josheb]

It was not "before creation", because if He had that knowledge He would not have created man.

Prove that statement, please.

 

[CCShorts]

No. It is based on the Bible. As Genesis shows clearly...

... as time unfolds God learns.

No. The concept of God's omniscience, which includes His knowledge of the past, present, and future, is deeply rooted in Scripture. Let's explore this with references and explanations:

Isaiah 46:10: "I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say, 'My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.'" This verse affirms God's knowledge of the future and His sovereign plan.

Psalm 139:4: "Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely." This verse underscores that God's knowledge is not limited to the present but extends to our thoughts and words, which include the future.

Psalm 147:5: "Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit." God's understanding having "no limit" encompasses His knowledge of all time.

Jeremiah 1:5: "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you." God's knowledge of Jeremiah before his birth demonstrates His foreknowledge of individuals' lives.

Revelation 1:8: "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." God's declaration as the Alpha and the Omega signifies His existence throughout time, encompassing past, present, and future.

Psalm 90:2: "Before the mountains were born or you brought forth the whole world, from everlasting to everlasting you are God." This verse highlights God's eternal nature, which includes His knowledge of all time.

In summary, these scriptural references demonstrate that God's omniscience extends to the past, present, and future. This profound attribute is an integral part of His divine nature as revealed in the Bible.

...

 

[Josheb]

I believe that is implied in the three layers.

Let's not imply it. Let's explicitly state it.

You see before God determined there to be any "thing" other than God to be known, God himself was "all things knowable" at that moment.

That is incorrect.

As soon as God determined another thing to be "knowable" it became a part of the "all things knowable" and God knew it at that same moment. There was never a moment where God did not know "all things knowable".

Which is why it deserves its own category, its own "layer." The fact is the three "layers" listed in the op all fall under the layer neglected = His knowing all that is knowable.

I agree that creation is the first cause of all things that occur in the timeline of creation (In the beginning God created)...

Good

However to suggest a "thing" Originated on the third layer and then the information traveled in reverse order back to the second or first layer of God's knowledge is an Open Theist position that denies God's second layer Foreknowledge of "all things" before the foundation of the world.

Never happened. No such "suggestion" ever occurred.

I agree but these are all part of God's created cause and effect order of the timeline of creation. Like an Author of a book pre plans, purposes, and determines all things that occur in his story and there are storyline level reasons (secondary causes) as to how things occur within the story. Secondary causes are not to be confused with the Ultimate cause of "all things".

...or their contingencies. I'm reluctant to accept the anthropomorphized analogy, but I am glad we have agreement.

"Secondary causes" are not disconnected causes.

Never said they were.

They are part of the predetermined created causes.

Which is what I said; all secondary causes and their contingencies ensue from the first cause (creation, or God's will and purpose).

I agree but it's crucial to understand that nothing in the third layer of existence can transition to the next moment of existence independently; it is entirely dependent on God's causative power in accordance with the first two layers:

No, it's crucial to understand the doctrine of omniscience does NOT make claims about God that are logically impossible. The doctrine fo divine omniscience simply states God knows all..... that is knowable. God does not know that which is not knowable. God does not know how to make a round square or a cubicle sphere because those are by definition logical contradictions.

That is a big "layer."

One left out of this op.

Divine Causative Power:
In this framework, God's causative power is the driving force behind every change and transition in the third layer of existence. This power is not arbitrary but aligns with God's knowledge (first layer) and divine plan (second layer). Everything that happens in the timeline of creation, from the motion of celestial bodies to the actions of living beings, occurs because of God's causative power.

Divine Sustenance:
God's power extends beyond mere creation. It also includes the sustaining of all things. Nothing can exist or continue to exist independently of God's sustaining power. This means that at every moment, God's power is necessary to uphold and maintain the existence and functioning of every thing in the universe.

Alignment with Divine Purpose:
God's causative power ensures that every moment in the third layer aligns with His divine purpose (second layer). There is a grand design and order to creation, and God's power ensures that everything contributes to this divine plan.

Theological Consistency:
This concept aligns with many theological beliefs that emphasize God's omnipotence, providence, and sovereignty over creation. It is consistent with the idea that God is the ultimate source of all change and existence.

In summary, nothing in the third layer of existence can transition to the next moment of existence independently; it is entirely contingent on God's causative power, which operates in harmony with His knowledge and divine plan.

God does not have a before/during/and after. Time is a creation. God made time. He does not live within the limits of what He created. The word "next" never applies to God. That's the whole point of omniscience. "layers of existence" and "next moment" do not apply to God. Humans experience time in a linear manner of before, during, and after, but God does not. Humans may have a "third layer of existence" but God does not.

This understanding underscores the profound role of God in every aspect of creation and continued existence.

I am not aware that is a point in dispute by anyone.



These two posts (#s 9 and 10) are long so, if you like, I'll repost them in smaller portions with each separate post addressing an individual concern. Let me know if you'd like me to do that BEFORE you address this content.

 

[Josheb]

Part 2:
Are you sure you want to change the topic of discussion away from divine omniscience to hamartiology?

This is where we differ as I disagree that sin is a "thing" created/made by God or man.

Happy to have that conversation.

Sin is an antithesis. Are you familiar with the terms and concept of "thesis" and "antithesis." God is righteous. Sin is unrighteousness. God is the lawful Law Maker. Sin is lawlessness. God is ever-faithful. Sin is faithlessness. God mad creation one way (good), AND God also made the world full of yet-realized potential. He made a creation where sin did not exist, but sin was possible. God made Adam and Eve good and sinless, but He also made the corruptible. Not corrupted, but corruptible. God made a world in which that which was not-good could have (and should have) been recognized simply because it was not good.

That which is good is not not-good. Not-good can be recognized simply be the fact it is not good.


That is the world God created. It is NOT the world in which we now live. Good is thesis. Not-good is antithesis.

A pile of logical problems will ensue if the "thingness" of sin is denied because then love cannot be a "thing," patience, kindness, trust, mercy, justice, etc. are not "things." It is correct not to reify them, but that does not mean they are not things that do not exist. Try to cut a slice of time, put it between two slides, and look at it under a microscope .

There was a time when sin did not exist. This is implicit from 1) Genesis 1:31 wherein we learn everything God made was good, and 2) Romans 5:12 wherein we learn sin entered the world due to one man's actions after humanity was created. Sin entered a world where it did not previously exist. God does not call sin "good" (Isa. 5:20).

So, if still disagreeing, the dissent and the case I just made is incorrect will have to be proven and it will have to be shown the verses cited do not mean what they state. I think it best to acknowledge sin is a "thing," but it is not a physical thing.

God knows things that are not physical. He also knows about things that are not physical. Yes?

Man did not "make" sin... man commits sin (actions that violate God's law for created man).

LOL! That's a thing!

It is also a mistake.

Sin is not solely a matter of conduct. Sin is also a matter of disposition. We sin because we are sinful and we're sinful because we sin. Most people make the error of using 1 John 3:4 to define sin and they then commit the additional error of "onlyism," the practice of inserting the word "only" into scripture where it is nowhere stated. In the case of 1 John 3:4 they say ONLY lawlessness is sin, when the facts of scripture are that scripture defines sin in several ways, not just as lawlessness (happy to cover in greater detail).

Furthermore, once a person acts in a disobedient manner than his nature changes. The one who has acted disobediently has changed ontologically. Where he had previously been unashamed, good, and sinless, he is subsequently ashamed, not-good, and sinful. His disposition has changed. His ontology has changed.

So too has his destiny.

So..... I'm open to the disagreement, but if what I just added doesn't provide room for agreement then it's incumbent upon you to prove humans did not make sin and sin is only a matter of conduct.

"Sin" is a description of actions that occur in the the timeline of creation (third layer). Actions that can not occur independent of God's power (first layer) or foreknowledge (second layer). No "thing", including actions described as "sin", originates on the third layer sending information backwards to the second or first layer. God is the Originator of "all things" including those things that are identified as not God.

Like the Author of a book is the Author of all things that occur in his story but the Author is not identified as the character acting in the story. Who committed the action? The character. Who pre planned, purposed, and determined the occurance of that character committing that act described as "sin"? The Author of "all things".

That is incorrect.



And we're getting afield of the op, so let me attempt to reconsolidate the discussion. This op lists three "layers" of God's knowledge. It's a fine op. Nothing I have posted should be construed to say I disagree with the opening post, or that I'm arguing solely for the sake of arguing. Despite the excellence of the op there is a problem because the op leaves out the fact the doctrine of divine omniscience is a fairly specific doctrine that does NOT claim God knows EVERYTHING. Correctly understood the doctrine of divine omniscience simply means God knows all that is knowable, and the three "layers" lusted in the op all fall under that layer. I was being gracious suggesting it was a fourth layer, but receiving unexpected resistance I will press the matter because there is no knowledge of Himself, plan for creation, and knowledge of created things without his FIRST knowing all that is knowable.

That was my original point.

Due to the response received I trust my point is clearer and better understood because a few other problems have arisen, beginning with the premise of conflating divine omniscience with "layers of existence," "transition," and "next," for a God who exists outside of time and space. Sin is a thing and satan and man did cause it and make it because sin is an antithesis of that which God made. It is the consequence of a secondary cause God Himself did not force upon satan or Adam. This is important because if it is going to be argued God knows all things then God knows sin, and He knows it experientially . That will result in a sinning sinful God who calls Himself righteous and I trust we both deny that premise.


These two posts (#s 9 and 10) are long so, if you like, I'll repost them in smaller portions with each separate post addressing an individual concern. Let me know if you'd like me to do that BEFORE you address this content.

 

[CCShorts]

I don't think we really disagree on much but we may be talking past each other. We can start here:

Which is why it deserves its own category, its own "layer." The fact is the three "layers" listed in the op all fall under the layer neglected = His knowing all that is knowable.

In simpler terms, I have a question about God's choices. When could God have chosen differently in his actions, especially when it comes to creating the world? If God always knew what he would do, did he have the freedom to do things differently?

...

 

[Josheb]

I don't think we really disagree on much but we may be talking past each other. We can start here:

In simpler terms, I have a question about God's choices. When could God have chosen differently in his actions, especially when it comes to creating the world? If God always knew what he would do, did he have the freedom to do things differently?

...

I'm not a big fan of moving on to other matters before agreement is found and clearly stated. Would you mind posting explicit agreement wherever they occurred in the last two of our exchanges?

• Does God know all things knowable?
• Does God know anything not knowable?
• Does divine omniscience teach God knows unknowables?
• Can the "layers" listed in the op be listed under the premise of God knowing all that can be known?
• Does God exist outside of time and space? If so, then are before, during, and after germane to God's knowledge of all things?
• Is sin only an action, or does a sinful act then substantively change the sinner in ways that did not previously exist?
• Did God cause sin?

Answer those and any other real or perceived differences we had, and I'll change course with you and answer your question. For now, I will reply by saying God can choose anything He likes and could have created an infinite number of worlds of infinite variety, and I think the question asked as asked is a red herring. The world He created is created in freedom.

 

[CCShorts]

I'm not a big fan of moving on to other matters before agreement is found and clearly stated. Would you mind posting explicit agreement wherever they occurred in the last two of our exchanges?

• Does God know all things knowable?

Yes

• Does God know anything not knowable?

No

• Does divine omniscience teach God knows unknowables?

No

• Can the "layers" listed in the op be listed under the premise of God knowing all that can be known?

I believe so.

• Does God exist outside of time and space?

Outside of Created time and space yes.

However I'm not convinced that the Transcendent Level that God dwells in does not have moments.

• If so, then are before, during, and after germane to God's knowledge of all things?

Not sure how to answer this one as it can be demonstrated that there was at least one moment "before the foundation of the world".

My question is was God paused for eternity in that moment?

• Is sin only an action, or does a sinful act then substantively change the sinner in ways that did not previously exist?

Lets not open this can of worms yet.

• Did God cause sin?

I believe he did but im sure we disagree on this point... but again lets avoid this contention at the moment.

Answer those and any other real or perceived differences we had, and I'll change course with you and answer your question.

Im not against you. I believe we are on the same side for the most part even with these differences. Im interested in a conversation on these things and value your input.

For now, I will reply by saying God can choose anything He likes and could have created an infinite number of worlds of infinite variety, and I think the question asked as asked is a red herring.

My question was not intended to be a red herring as my OP is intended to expose the context of my question. If im not wrong I think we both believe that God "was" free at some point to determine things differently. Im aware that sounds like God is not "free" now but that is not what I'm getting implying.

My point is once "all things knowable" have been determined there is no reason for God to "change his mind" per say afterwards.

The world He created is created in freedom.

And this brings back to the point of my OP.

If we say God's action of creating this world has always been eternally part of Omniscience then at what point was God "free" to create a different world other that what that Omniscience eternally entailed?

...

 

[Josheb]

My point is once "all things knowable" have been determined there is no reason for God to "change his mind" per say afterwards.

I completely agree.

Numbers 23:10
God is not a man, that He would lie, nor a son of man, that He would change His mind.

If we say God's action of creating this world has always been eternally part of Omniscience then at what point was God "free" to create a different world other that what that Omniscience eternally entailed?

The problem is this idea creating this world has always been eternally a part of omniscience. This is problematic for a couple of reasons because eternity has no parts and no time. Neither does omniscience. We humans reason through eternal aspects of God temporally and within the limits of our reason but there are no "parts" (or layers) for God. God is One.

This is admittedly confusing because the plain and simple fact of scripture is that there is a beginning and an end to creation (at least an end is implied in verses like Mt. 24:35) and having created time there is a before, during, and after, a past, present, and future for us and God created it. In other words, the eternal God created a beginning . He could have created any numbers of beginnings because He is eternal, not in spite of His being eternal. For all we know God has already created multiple beginnings and ends for a multitude of creature of which we have no knowledge or awareness. In fact, He could have created an infinite "number" of beginnings from His eternal omniscience.

What He cannot do is create a creation that is not possible to know .

 

[CCShorts]

Exactly this:

The problem is this idea creating this world has always been eternally a part of omniscience.

This is the "problem" my OP is attempting to reconcile.

This is problematic for a couple of reasons...

I agree... and my point is that I don't believe what you state next has to be true:

...because eternity has no parts and no time. Neither does omniscience.

And my question is: Why can't it?

I know nether you nor I are referring to "parts" or "time" in refrence to creation. Creation is not in view here.

I'm strictly referring to the Transcendent Level.

Consider J.R.R. Tolkien as the Determiner of "all things" that occur in the timeline of his story, The Lord Of The Rings.

Tolkien is not IN the Storyline Level Timeline. Tolkien Transcends the timeline of the story but this fact does not necessarily mean that a Transcendent timeline does not exist on Tolkiens Level of existance.

Now consider a conversation in the LOTR story between two characters discussing the idea that their creator exists outside the timeline of the pages of this book. Would it be necessary to assume that just because Tolkien does not have "pages" on his level of existance that it must mean his existance can not have any concept of "parts" or "time"? Should the characters be required to assume that Tolkien was [statically paused] for a singular eternal moment? Is it illogical to think that Tolkien could have another moment of freedom to have determined the story differently at some point "before the foundation of the book"?

Now like I said previously on God's Level of existance there is demonstrably at least one moment "before the foundation of the world" just like it can be demonstrated that there is at least one moment on Tolkien's Level of existance "before the foundation of The LOTR Storyline".

My OP is attempting to allow God the "freedom" to have, at some point, determined things differently before the foundation of the world" but the current idea of...

creating this world has always been eternally a part of omniscience.

...seems to not allow God freedom at any point to have determined differently.

I am not convinced that God was in an eternal state of "pause" "before the foundation of the world".

What are your thoughts of a Transcent level idea of moments?

...

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Prove that statement, please.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

God was sorry, regretted, making man. If He had perfect foreknowledge "before creation" He would not have made man. This verse is a clear indication that man has free will, and using that will, chooses against God's ways.

 

[fastfredy0]

What are your thoughts of a Transcent level idea of moments?

Seems that by definition the "Transcent (To pass beyond the limits of) Level" is beyond our abilities to discuss intelligently. I have read the following:
His eternity is evident, by the name God gives himself (Exodus 3:14 “And God said unto Moses, I am that I am; thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel, ‘I Am hath sent me unto you.’ “This is the name whereby he is distinguished from all creatures; I Am, is his proper name. This description being in the present tense, shows that his essence knows no past, nor future; if it were he was, it would intimate he were not now what he once was; if it were he will be, it would intimate he were not yet what he will be; but I Am; I am the only being, the root of all beings; he is therefore, at the greatest distance from not being, and that is eternal. So that signifies his eternity, as well as his perfection and immutability. I have not that now, which I had not formerly; I shall not afterwards have that which I have not now; I am that in every moment which I was, and will be in all moments of time; nothing can be added to me, nothing can be detracted from me; there is nothing superior to him, which can detract from him; nothing desirable that can be added to him. Now if there were any beginning and end of God, any succession in him, he could not be “I Am;” for in regard of what was past, he would not be; in regard of what was to come, he is not yet. He hath life in himself; all creatures have their life in him and from him. He that hath life in himself doth necessarily exist, and could never be made to exist; for then he had not life in himself, but in that which made him to exist, and gave him life. What doth necessarily exist therefore, exists from eternity; what hath being of itself could never be produced in time, could not want being one moment, because it hath being from its essence, without influence of any efficient cause. John Gill – Body of Doctrinal Divinity

God has no beginning, end (Job 36:26), or succession of moments in His own being, and He sees all time equally vividly, yet God sees events in time and acts in time. Time does not limit God; time has no effect on God’s knowledge, He cannot learn or forget for that means a change in His perfect knowledge. To God himself, all of his existence is always somehow “present” as He is in all moments of time; He is the cause of time. (Hebrews 11:3)
God is not an effect (an effect being something that requires a cause) because He is eternal Psalm 90:2b. As an eternal Being He sees the past and the future as clearly as the present; further, He must see them as including succession of events, and yet He is in no way bound by that succession. He is absolutely independent of all that is not God. (John 5:26; Romans 11:33)
From God’s perspective, any extremely long period of time is as if it just happened. And any very short period of time (such as one day) seems to God to last forever (2 Peter 3:8): it never ceases to be “present” in his consciousness. God always was and always will be.
What then is the relation of time and eternity to each other? Time is not a part of eternity, for if it were, eternity must have succession, viz.: before time, during time, after time. They are different modes of existence which are unlike each other, time being suited to the measurement of creation periods. True eternity belongs only to the life of God. While time is not a part of eternity, it co-exists with it. Through the divine purpose all its events have been eternally present with God, and as well-known and realized by him as though actually existent.
His eternity may be defined as that perfection of God whereby He is elevated above all temporal limits and all succession of moments, and possesses the whole of His existence in one indivisible present.
With God there can be no succession of moments because:

• then he would have had a beginning
• then he would not be unchangeable, for what would be true of him today which was not yesterday and will not be tomorrow
• He would not be perfect because something could be added to him from day to day.
• God has no succession, no increase of life, is possessed of the whole of his existence at once. This accords with the statements of Scripture. God is always spoken of in the present. He calls himself “I AM”. John 8:58

Who controls your desires? God controlling you as a necessary consequence of your very existence. God is not just your creator but he's your sustainer (see preservation, Acts 17:28a, Colossians 1:17, Hebrews 1:3, Romans 11:36, Job 34:14-15) and he's your sustainer at all moments so he has caused you to come into existence when He created you and He causes you to continue to exist as He sustains you. Is anybody going dare say that God is not in control of his own sustaining power. He was in control of how He created things. He was in control of precisely the way in which his creative power brought things into existence … why would it not logically follow then that God is in absolute control of His sustaining power and the way He keeps things in existence and if that truth is applicable to every particle of your existence that would include your will, your thoughts, your choices, your emotions, all of you. This points out a false assumption on the “free will” side that God can somehow create things that he does not control. Colin Sketo @CCShorts probably liked this quote

 

[Josheb]

Exactly this:


This is the "problem" my OP is attempting to reconcile.

Then it is doing so with what is at best a poorly worded question that neglects the actual circumstances in which omniscence exists and creation occurred. At worst it's a thoroughly misguided question, a red herring, that has nothing to do with omniscience and creation.

I agree... and my point is that I don't believe what you state next [eternity and omniscience do not have parts] has to be true[.]

And my question is: Why can't it?

I've already answered that question.

Neither have parts because both are eternal and both are eternal prior to the creation of time. To be wholly accurate, there is no "prior to," or "before" when it comes to eternity. Eternity is the divine IS, the ever-present-always-now.

This is a poor analogy but consider you awaken one day at noon and you find yourself someplace where as far as you can see the view looks exactly the same. This could be in the middle of a vast desert, the middle of a vast snowscape, or the middle of an ocean. There are no distinguishing factors and you do not want to stay there. In order to leave that position in the middle of "nowhere," you'd have to move, move in a given direction and, presumably, move in the direction of the nearest refuge where you might there find food and water, shelter, etc. If you wait an hour you will begin to notice the movement of the sun because on this plant the sun "moves" east to west and you can follow the sun's direction to prevent yourself from walking or swimming in circles. The sun's arc serves as a point of reference from which direction (east, west, north, south) can be determined. At nighttime you could navigate by the constellations but navigating by the sun and stars would work only if the knowledge of the sun and stars was known. Otherwise, all of it is meaningless to you and you die .

No let's take this analogy into space. In space there is direction. There is no east, west, north, or south, and there is no left, right, up, or down, either. Whereas the desert, the sea, and the frozen wilderness are all geographically two-dimensional, space is three-dimensional. The problem of knowing which way to go and how not to move in circles is exponentially more demanding. If I threw in a time limit for when you had to reach refuge then we'd have four dimensions (length, width, depth, and time).

Now consider this same analogy on the quantum level where there are not two, three, or four dimensions but 10 or 11!

No matter how many dimensions there are what you'd need is a reference point from which everything else could be measured. On earth, the path of the sun could serve as a reference point. The north pole could serve as a point of reference if you had a compass. This won't work in space because all the celestial objects are constantly moving, and they do not maintain a fixed positions relative to one another.

I'm not sure how much you know about physics, but technically everything I have just described can be understood in terms of a single entity known as the singularity. Just as matter and energy are not fundamentally different, so too time and space are functions of gravity, or singularity.

This is a long-winded way of pointing out God is His own reference point, and the reference point for all He created. As such this reference point NEVER changes. It is immutable and immutably never ending - never ending without beginning or end!

You and I need an external source, and external objective source by which everything we know (reason and experience) is measured. God has no need of any such reference. He is the reference point Who created creation with Himself as its point of reference. This includes time or, more accurately, time and space. Time can be thought of as a measure of cause and effect. I push on the button marked "I" on my keyboard and the word "I" appears on your computer screen reading this posted. I caused the "I" to happen. I do so only because there are various mechanisms in place enabling me to do so and because I possess the knowledge to make the "I" happen. The mechanisms for making a cyberspace "I" did not always exist and I did not always possess that knowledge, but God created everything ex nihilo.

He and He alone is The First Cause, the Causal Cause of all things and that includes His being The Causal Agent of time. The moment He said, "Let there be..." time was created. In other words, not only was the object of the "Let there be _______________," created, but so too was time. "prior" to that there was no prior, there was no time. Think of creation as something like an orb in which time and space are the invisible shell of the orb. Everything in that creation, including the "shell" itself is finite. Everything within the orb's shell is likewise finite (although not necessarily finite in the same way, depending on where you are in the orb - the physics of space on earth, in space, and at the quantum level vary). You and I cannot leave the orb, but God exists external to, outside of, the orb and He and He alone can enter and leave the orb He created. He is not bound by the limits of the creation He created, and that holds true even when He enters that orb. God is not limited by time and space prior to the creation of time and space and God is not limited by the limits of time and space even when He enters the time and space He created. God could, in fact, erase all of existence of the world..... as if it had never happened. The fact is you and I do not even possess the language to described that condition because we use "as if." The period (.) belongs much earlier in the sentence. God could erase all existence. We could not even say the word "record," because it would not apply. God could erase the existence of creation as if it never existed except for the record of its existence but He could also erase. There'd be no "it." He spoke creation into existence and He could just as easily speak it out of existence.

He is eternal.

He is all-knowing.

And He is externally eternal and all-knowing.

I know nether you nor I are referring to "parts" or "time" in reference to creation. Creation is not in view here.

That reads as a moving of the goalposts. The opening posts explicitly stipulates a "layer" of God's omniscience specifically relevant and applicable to "God's Plan and Purpose for Creation," and His determining, sustaining, and intentions for creation, and Post #4 affirms God as the First Cause and creation having a divine order. You are also correct to observe the other poster's error and the problem of an omniscient God "gaining" knowledge (knowledge that was possible to know prior-to).

Yet the question to which you are seeking an answer is how can this God change His mind if all this knowledge is a prior.

Any "change of mind" occurs solely within creation, not in eternity. It does, therefore, inescapably have reference to creation. I, therefore, do not understand how you can now say it has not reference to creation and "Creation is not in view here." I also suspect the context(s) of any scriptural mention of "change of mind" has not been adequately understood because they cannot be made to conflict with the aforementioned Num. 23:19, or those texts that speak of His plan for/in creation.

If God really does change His mind, then He knows of His own "change" and He knows it from eternity . It's an immutable change of mind ...... that we experience post hoc. None of us understand or experience any such change eternally. We only experience it temporally., only as a matter of cause-and-effect, and only in, through, and as a limitation. Now, fundamentally, I think this a misdirection, but I post it because it warrants being said.

Because this post is long, I'll take up the rest of Post #15 separately.

 

[Josheb]

I'm strictly referring to the Transcendent Level.

There is no "transcendent level" for God.

This is part of the problem to be solved with this op's inquiry. God transcends all means He is transcendent, not He experiences transcendence. The condition of "transcendence," is something we contemplate, a limitation we experience and cannot escape or overcome - none of which exists for God. God knows everything that happens in creation - He knows everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen - and He knows it both absent the linear cause-and-effect of time AND is a current "now." None of it is transcendent for a First-Cause Creator who created time existing external to that which He created.

"Referring to the Transcendent Level," is a bad referring.

Consider J.R.R. Tolkien as the Determiner of "all things" that occur in the timeline of his story, The Lord Of The Rings.

No.

We do not appeal to extra-biblical sources when the Bible is available to us and on any such occasion, we appeal to any such source we do not appeal to fiction and treat fiction as if it has something non-fictional and definitive about God.

Take another tack.

From the reading of this op, it appears you've been doing some reading and based the op, your understanding, and the subsequent inquiries on something(s) you've read. I do not know what those sources might be (it might help to know because I've read a lot of Theology, not just theology from diverse perspectives). Many of the inquiries and comments here are ones an Open Theist might ask or assert. I've been reminded of theologians Open Theists Clarke, Oord, and Pinnock but I'm also reminded of more mainstream, orthodox theologians such as van Til, Schaeffer, and more specifically, Ronald H. Nash. I highly recommend his book "The Concept of God." I'm also reminded of various secular philosophical sources from Hegel to Derrida (who were all in serious error in some way) but more saliently some of the works in physics that are not directly related to divine epistemology but are, nonetheless, very informative. I think you'll benefit greatly from reading Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace," and even though it's a more demanding, somewhat antiquated, and less salient read, Roger Penrose's "The Emperor's New Mind" is fascinating when read through Christian eyes possessing a knowledge of scripture.

C. S. Lewis was a smart guy, but he died in the early days of relativity, quantum mechanics, and prior to our landing on the moon.

Tolkien is not IN the Storyline Level Timeline. Tolkien Transcends the timeline....

Several problems with the analogy, beginning with the fact Tolkien is one finite man and God is an Infinite Trinity. God, the God of the Bible, always and every exists inherently already in relationship . I've already addressed the error of "transcendence" when it comes to divine knowledge or epistemology. It is correct to observe Tolkien exists external to the timeline, but the factional history of LOTR is not an expression of his being, and neither is he able to enter and exist or manipulate the "timeline." Furthermore, the timeline of LOTR is nonexistent. It does not actually exist. One valid observation I do think could be made using this analogy is the fact there is a predetermined beginning and end and Tolkien know it all. The analogy fails, though, the moment we speak of a "change of mind," because once published no such change is possible. The entire story, its timeline, its character, and the means by which the end is reached differ. It is an entirely different story.

More, importantly, there is an inescapable relationship between the author and his story because any change in the author's mind changes the author. Tolkien himself would be different! His brain would be inalterably different on a cellular lever. Changes in the story change the author. That does not happen with an immutable God. He can, hypothetically, change anything or everything in His creation and remain unchanged because all changes come from an eternal omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence where He and He alone are the measure of all cause-and-effect and time does not exist.

 

[Josheb]

Now like I said previously on God's Level of existence there is demonstrably at least one moment "before the foundation of the world" just like it can be demonstrated that there is at least one moment on Tolkien's Level of existence "before the foundation of The LOTR Storyline".

Yes, that was said, but it is not correct. There is a time and place "before" creation for us, but it is not that way for God.

My OP is attempting to allow God the "freedom" to have, at some point, determined things differently before the foundation of the world" but the current idea of... [creating this world has always been eternally a part of omniscience] ...seems to not allow God freedom at any point to have determined differently.

lol. I can see I have begged my own question so let me clarify that and remove the contradiction because I have said there are not "parts" to divine omniscience and here I am saying creation is an "always" and a "part". My bad. I have to also chuckle at the premise you or I "allow" God anything, especially freedom. Both His omniscience and His freedom are predicate conditions.

The would-be problem isn't a problem because God did not create a fixed creation and God could have and quite possible has created an infinite number of creations within and alternative to this one, and all of them different/unique. We cannot speak to that which we do not know, but we can understand the idea of allowing God freedom is possible only from that position of ignorance on our part. Were God to rend the fabric of time and space and show us a glimpse of His freedom (and diversity) this entire thread would be rendered foolishness . I have suggested there are presuppositional problems with this op, ones that either have not correctly or adequately understood pre-existing conditions of God relative to finite created human existence.

To suggest any "determining things differently" presumes they haven't been differently determined elsewhere or that any different determination is necessary or desired. All of that has to be justified before any of it has any validity and, so far, no such justification has been provided. It has been assumed. A lot of your discussion is question begging.

I am not convinced that God was in an eternal state of "pause" "before the foundation of the world".

That's a serious problem because it means you do not believe in the God of the Bible and you do not believe the God of the Bible when He speaks. It means some of the conditions of scripture are not treated as factual, truthful or authoritative.

For example, The Bible opens with the statement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Those ten words contain a lot of meaning salient to this op. At its most basic, foundational level the existence of a God is asserted. A beginning is also asserted, and the existence of that God is asserted before the asserted beginning. Since times is a measure of cause and effect, we necessarily understand this "beginning" includes the beginning of time, of what we call "history." We also necessarily understand whatever ensues detailing the creation of the heavens and the earth and what happens after the asserted beginning, God existed before the beginning and God existed external to the beginning. We also know there is a difference between that which is Creator and that which is created. All of that and more can be reasoned, deduced and logically inferred from those ten words. When we add to them other statements in the Bible, such as God having no beginning or end, and God planning and having a purpose for things He created.

Let me also suggest three matters that may not yet have been considered (buy I suspect you might have).

First, it does not take a particularly "big" god to make creatures that do only what they are made to do. Any small-g god can make action figures that can be manipulated to do that which they are made to do. That god, however, would not be a God, and would not be the God of the Bible. The God of the Bible has made creatures of varying volitional agency, and that variance is immensely diverse. Among them, He has made creatures He reports have very real volitional agency that includes a capacity to think, choose, and act contrary to His thinking, choosing, and action but still accomplishing His plan/purpose for that which He created. He is an immensely more knowledgeable, powerful, and present God than the god-who-can-only-make-action-figures.

Second, and I'll get some disagreement from my Reformed siblings here, creation is not singular or linear. Creation was created with an enormous amount of what I call, "unrealized dialectic potential." It is full of (or was originally filled with) thesis, antithesis, and synthesis, and there is a sense in which it must be this way by design given certain statements read in the Bible. For example, anytime God says, "if," that is an example of a predicate condition, a causally predicate condition, a causally predicate dialectic condition. In computer programming this is known as the if/then/else equation: "if___________, then ____________________, else ____________________." When God says, "you do A then B will ensue, but if either A is not done or C (any alternative to A) is done then D will ensue we KNOW God has just expressed a design aspect of creation that has yet to be realized or manifested. Scripture is filled with these examples. They are what give the Open Theists pause and reason in their thinking justifying their (misguided, imo) theology.

All of these unrealized potentialities do not actually affect the outcome of all creation, though .

Yep. Creation has a beginning, one specific, fixed unalterable beginning, and it has an ending, one specific, fixed, unalterable end that has already been specified - yet everything that happens amidst the vastly diverse so-far-realized and still yet-to-be-realized dialectics will all conspire to conclude at the already eternally decided outcome. For us, those inside the orb of creation, this appears as a matrix of possibilities , of "probabilities," any branch of which is unknown, but God is not a God of probabilities; He does not change His mind and He knows the beginning from the end. He also knows which of the billiongazillion possibilities have/do/will occur and He knows all of it prior to His creating creation.

How?

Because it can be known.

God knows all that can be known. We do not, but God does. Even if any single specific possibility were unknowable, it would not compromise divine omniscience because divine omniscience does not require God to know anything unknowable. He does know how to make a spherical cube because it is impossible to make a spherical cube. Alternatively, the classic question regarding God's omnipotence is, "Can God make a rock so heavy He cannot lift it?" and the correct answer is "Yes, but it would weigh infinitely and thereby be no limit upon His power." God can know and does know all that could/can/does/will possibly exist and He knows which of the infinite number of possibilities did/does/will exist, and He knows it because He made it that way.

Lastly, this is not particularly something unique to Christianity or human reasoning. Humanity has always understood the tension between volitional agency and determinism. The story of Oedipus Rex is a prime example of the exact same tension articulated in non-Biblical terms or language. Oedipus' decisions and actions are all freely made, and they all still conspire to see that his already declared fate comes to happen. As I often put it in my own words, if God sees fit to have you stub your toe next Saturday, then every choice you freely make between now and next Saturday will somehow conspire to see that you stub your toe next Saturday. The two - divine determinism and volitional agency - do not work in opposition with one another, but in collusion with one another.

How?

That is the way the Infinite-Personal, omni-attributed Causal Creator made it to be.

What are your thoughts of a [Transcendent] level idea of moments?

I think it is a presuppositional error.

God is not transcendent to Himself. The question of omniscience cannot be answered from within creation and all attempts to do it that way will fail if and when they ignore the external existence of God who is not transcendent to Himself. It's akin to the amoeba in a pond in Alaska trying to understand the African elephant.

Correct the presuppositions and the question not only becomes answerable, it becomes unnecessary.