Christians called to suffering?

[donadams]

Christians called to a life of Suffering in union with Christ for the salvation of souls & the love of God!

No servant is greater than his master. Jn 13:16

Christ is our model in suffering. Matt 16:24 Our suffer for His sake, Phil 1:29 for the sake of His body the church. Col 1:24 for the salvation of souls. Phil 1:19

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:


Rev 2: 19 I know thy works, and charity, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first.

Rev 2:23 .....I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Why not I know Thy faith?
Reward according to youre faith?

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind (lacking) of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

What’s lacking, our participation!

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;


Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

 

[Josheb]

Christians called to a life of Suffering in union with Christ for the salvation of souls & the love of God!

One question and one bit of commentary.

First, would you define "suffering" as you intend it to be used and discussed in the ensuing thread?

Second, all of the verses listed in the op were written to Christians living in the NT era in which persecution, prosecution, and the eschatological judgment of Jerusalem was then pending. Thos conditions either do not exist, or don't exist in identical form here in the US. Here in the US suffering in Christian life is much different (if it exists at all). Christians are the most persecuted people in the world today, but modern US Christians do not experience much if any of what the New Testament era Christians suffered..... and that is a good thing. We live in a country where Christianity is the prevailing worldview, and in a world where the Judeo-Christian influence (although waning) still prevails. This lack of suffering is due to the spread of the gospel, the chief now-existing condition that did not exist in the NT era.

Having to go to court to assert and defend God-given rights affirmed in a constitutional republic is enormously different than being covered in pitch, skewered on a pole and light on fire while still alive to be used as a nightlight.

 

[donadams]

One question and one bit of commentary.

First, would you define "suffering" as you intend it to be used and discussed in the ensuing thread?

Second, all of the verses listed in the op were written to Christians living in the NT era in which persecution, prosecution, and the eschatological judgment of Jerusalem was then pending. Thos conditions either do not exist, or don't exist in identical form here in the US. Here in the US suffering in Christian life is much different (if it exists at all). Christians are the most persecuted people in the world today, but modern US Christians do not experience much if any of what the New Testament era Christians suffered..... and that is a good thing. We live in a country where Christianity is the prevailing worldview, and in a world where the Judeo-Christian influence (although waning) still prevails. This lack of suffering is due to the spread of the gospel, the chief now-existing condition that did not exist in the NT era.

Having to go to court to assert and defend God-given rights affirmed in a constitutional republic is enormously different than being covered in pitch, skewered on a pole and light on fire while still alive to be used as a nightlight.

Not referring to persecution in general
Although persecution can happen anywhere, maybe not bloody martyrdom but ridicule, and verbal abuse anyway.

Mostly I was referring to voluntary internal suffering as in Paul’s statement in Phil 1:29
To abide in Christ Jn 15:4 enduring to the end

Thanks

 

[Josheb]

Not referring to persecution in general. Although persecution can happen anywhere, maybe not bloody martyrdom but ridicule, and verbal abuse anyway.

Thanks for the clarification.

Mostly I was referring to voluntary internal suffering as in Paul’s statement in Phil 1:29.

Where does Phil. 1:29 (or its surrounding text) stipulate "voluntary internal suffering"? Verse 28 stipulates the original readers had "opponents," and their opposition was a sign of their destruction.

To abide in Christ Jn 15:4 enduring to the end

What does John 15:4 have to do with "voluntary internal suffering"? I read nothing in that verse or its surrounding text stipulating "voluntary internal suffering." The implication of abiding fruit on the vine is that the fruit grows, not suffers, and then produces more fruit.

Thanks

No problem.

Would you please define "suffering" or "voluntary internal suffering," in greater detail so that those entering this thread know how you intend it to be understood and discussed? Let the explanation be as specific as you feel comfortable providing. Is the use of the word, "voluntary" intended to communicate some internal choice is made to suffer when and while in Christ? If not then please clarify.

 

[prism]

One question and one bit of commentary.

First, would you define "suffering" as you intend it to be used and discussed in the ensuing thread?

Second, all of the verses listed in the op were written to Christians living in the NT era in which persecution, prosecution, and the eschatological judgment of Jerusalem was then pending. Thos conditions either do not exist, or don't exist in identical form here in the US. Here in the US suffering in Christian life is much different (if it exists at all). Christians are the most persecuted people in the world today, but modern US Christians do not experience much if any of what the New Testament era Christians suffered..... and that is a good thing. We live in a country where Christianity is the prevailing worldview, and in a world where the Judeo-Christian influence (although waning) still prevails. This lack of suffering is due to the spread of the gospel, the chief now-existing condition that did not exist in the NT era.

Having to go to court to assert and defend God-given rights affirmed in a constitutional republic is enormously different than being covered in pitch, skewered on a pole and light on fire while still alive to be used as a nightlight.

Good points but with humanitys fickleness, couldn't these favorable conditions change on a dime?

 

[Josheb]

Good points but with humanitys fickleness, couldn't these favorable conditions change on a dime?

Let's wait until the op defines his terms, lest we end up off-topic and irrelevant.

 

[prism]

Let's wait until the op defines his terms, lest we end up off-topic and irrelevant.

Agreed, I'm famous for trainwrecks lol.

 

[Ritajanice]

Mostly I was referring to voluntary internal suffering as in Paul’s statement in Phil 1:29
To abide in Christ Jn 15:4 enduring to the end

Thanks

Bible Verses About Suffering​

Bible verses related to Suffering from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance​

-Sort By Book Order




Romans 5:3-5 - And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (Read More...)

1 Peter 5:10 - But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

James 1:2-4 - My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (Read More...)

Romans 8:18 - For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

1 Peter 4:12-19 - Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (Read More...)

John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

2 Corinthians 4:8-10 - We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; (Read More...)

Isaiah 43:2 - When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Psalms 34:19 - Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

 

[donadams]

Thanks for the clarification.

Where does Phil. 1:29 (or its surrounding text) stipulate "voluntary internal suffering"? Verse 28 stipulates the original readers had "opponents," and their opposition was a sign of their destruction.

What does John 15:4 have to do with "voluntary internal suffering"? I read nothing in that verse or its surrounding text stipulating "voluntary internal suffering." The implication of abiding fruit on the vine is that the fruit grows, not suffers, and then produces more fruit.

No problem.

Would you please define "suffering" or "voluntary internal suffering," in greater detail so that those entering this thread know how you intend it to be understood and discussed? Let the explanation be as specific as you feel comfortable providing. Is the use of the word, "voluntary" intended to communicate some internal choice is made to suffer when and while in Christ? If not then please clarify.

Self-denial
The royal road of the cross

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Pray and watch that not enter into temptation Matt 26:41

Fasting, alms
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Christ and endure all things to the end Matt 24:13

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind (lacking) of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

What’s lacking, our participation!

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Thanks

 

[prism]

What’s lacking, our participation!

Just curious, how much participation must one have until it's no longer lacking?

 

[Josheb]

Bible verses related to suffering from the King James Version (KJV) by relevance

How do you know what is relevant if the op has not defined and clarified the term?

 

[Ritajanice]

How do you know what is relevant if the op has not defined and clarified the term?

I posted in answer to his post...thanks.

The way “ I “viewed it...

 

[Josheb]

Self-denial
The royal road of the cross

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Do you understand that biblical "self-denial" does not mean the eradication of the self?

The self is a creation of God. God knit us together in our mother's womb and gave us each name. Those whose are the Lamb's have their names written in the Lamb's book of life for all eternity! You will never not have a name, don. Furthermore, the second greatest command is to love others as we love ourself. That would a self-contradictory command if the self were something only-evil to be eradicated. Likewise, one of the fruit of the Spirit is self-control. Self-control is logically impossible if there is no self. Additionally, each and every human is created in the image of God and those who are in Christ bear the additional image of God found in Christ Jesus alone..... yet no two people bear that image identically. God has made seven billion people and no two are alike. The self is a good thing. God does not make bad things.

So, when Matthew 16:24 and other verses speak of self-denial it should never be construed to mean the self must be eradicated to the point it ceases to exist.

Furthermore, the appeal to Matthew 16:24 is a great reference, but it does nothing to clarify what YOU mean specifically by "suffering." Matthew 16:24 does NOT say taking up one's cross and following Jesus is suffering.

Pray and watch that not enter into temptation Matt 26:41

How is prayer and watching suffering?

Fasting, alms
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Christ and endure all things to the end Matt 24:13

Hmmm....

Neither John 15:15 nor Matthew 24:13 say anything about fasting, alms, or suffering. They speak of bearing fruit and being eschatologically saved.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Notice the Hebrews 12 text does not ask anyone to shed their own blood in their striving against sin. Verse 4 merely observes the Hebrews readers had not done so.

Jesus had.

We get spared the need to shed out blood because Jesus di so on our behalf. There is, as is the case with all the verses cited so far, no explicit mention of the word "suffer" or "suffering," anywhere in the entire chapter.

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Now maybe we are getting somewhere. What does verse 29 mean? Here there is an actual explicit mention of "suffer" but the "we" is specifically the Christians living in the first century in Philippi. Belief was given to them, and so was suffering. As I believe I pointed out earlier, this suffering was specified in the context of their opponents. No "volitional internal suffering" is mentioned.

We don't have those same kind of opponents here in the US here in the 21st century.

It is a hugely different experience being persecuted with civil legal cases backed by a Constitution that affirms our inherent right to religious expression than being covered in pitch, skewered on a pole and lit afire while still alive to serve as a streetlight.

30 Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.

You never met Paul. You never saw the "conflict" in him.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind (lacking) of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

What’s lacking, our participation!

Speak for yourself. I am very thankful and rejoice Paul suffered on behalf of the fledgling Church. Centuries of Christians have benefitted and centuries more will also do so. Praise God! Rejoice! Paul is dead and gone, though. He no longer suffers anything. The "now" of verse 24 was the first century, not the 21st century.

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

This might be the only explicit example of a "voluntary internal suffering" in the entire list, so I wonder why so many other verses that do not specify suffering are conflated with this text.

I will suggest two avenues for consideration. The first has to do predominantly with Romans 7-8 and the notion we do what we don't want to do and do what we don't want to do because of the law of sin and death that exists in the world and the fact there is a more superior, more powerful, and more promising law at work within us, the law of the Spirit, by which nothing can separate us from the love of God that is Christ Jesus. The other is the benefit of maturity, of putting away the elementary things of Christ and moving on toward as described in Hebrews 6 in submission to the provision of Christ as described in the beginning of Ephesians 4.

Galatians 5:24
And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Thanks

Notice that is an already-accomplished ongoing condition. It is not about the future in any way, shape or form.



Based on the contents of the posts it looks like there is some (presumably) unintended misuse of scripture whereby suffering is perceived where it is nowhere stated, internal conditions are perceived where none is stated, and future conditions are perceived where none are stated.


So, please clarify specifically what you mean by "voluntary internal suffering," because that phrase is not found in scripture.

 

[donadams]

Bible Verses About Suffering​

Bible verses related to Suffering from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance​

-Sort By Book Order




Romans 5:3-5 - And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; (Read More...)

1 Peter 5:10 - But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

James 1:2-4 - My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; (Read More...)

Romans 8:18 - For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

1 Peter 4:12-19 - Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (Read More...)

John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Revelation 21:4 - And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

2 Corinthians 4:8-10 - We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; (Read More...)

Isaiah 43:2 - When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.

2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

Psalms 34:19 - Many are the afflictions of the righteous: but the LORD delivereth him out of them all.

Glory to God in the highest!

 

[donadams]

Just curious, how much participation must one have until it's no longer lacking?

It’s not an amount like saying how much “faith alone” is enough?

We are united with Christ and his church the communion of saints by grace and are required to remain in Christ and faith until the end Matt 24:13 Jn 15:1-5
Thanks

 

[prism]

It’s not an amount like saying how much “faith alone” is enough?

We are united with Christ and his church the communion of saints by grace and are required to remain in Christ and faith until the end Matt 24:13 Jn 15:1-5
Thanks

Of course, this gets into the old dilemma of 'how much are we involved with our sanctification?' and 'how much is the Trinity involved?'
Besides, once 'in Christ', can a person extricate himself? I would say, 'no'.

 

[donadams]

Do you understand that biblical "self-denial" does not mean the eradication of the self?

The self is a creation of God. God knit us together in our mother's womb and gave us each name. Those whose are the Lamb's have their names written in the Lamb's book of life for all eternity! You will never not have a name, don. Furthermore, the second greatest command is to love others as we love ourself. That would a self-contradictory command if the self were something only-evil to be eradicated. Likewise, one of the fruit of the Spirit is self-control. Self-control is logically impossible if there is no self. Additionally, each and every human is created in the image of God and those who are in Christ bear the additional image of God found in Christ Jesus alone..... yet no two people bear that image identically. God has made seven billion people and no two are alike. The self is a good thing. God does not make bad things.

So, when Matthew 16:24 and other verses speak of self-denial it should never be construed to mean the self must be eradicated to the point it ceases to exist.

Furthermore, the appeal to Matthew 16:24 is a great reference, but it does nothing to clarify what YOU mean specifically by "suffering." Matthew 16:24 does NOT say taking up one's cross and following Jesus is suffering.

How is prayer and watching suffering?

Hmmm....

Neither John 15:15 nor Matthew 24:13 say anything about fasting, alms, or suffering. They speak of bearing fruit and being eschatologically saved.

Notice the Hebrews 12 text does not ask anyone to shed their own blood in their striving against sin. Verse 4 merely observes the Hebrews readers had not done so.

Jesus had.

We get spared the need to shed out blood because Jesus di so on our behalf. There is, as is the case with all the verses cited so far, no explicit mention of the word "suffer" or "suffering," anywhere in the entire chapter.

Now maybe we are getting somewhere. What does verse 29 mean? Here there is an actual explicit mention of "suffer" but the "we" is specifically the Christians living in the first century in Philippi. Belief was given to them, and so was suffering. As I believe I pointed out earlier, this suffering was specified in the context of their opponents. No "volitional internal suffering" is mentioned.

We don't have those same kind of opponents here in the US here in the 21st century.

It is a hugely different experience being persecuted with civil legal cases backed by a Constitution that affirms our inherent right to religious expression than being covered in pitch, skewered on a pole and lit afire while still alive to serve as a streetlight.

You never met Paul. You never saw the "conflict" in him.

Speak for yourself. I am very thankful and rejoice Paul suffered on behalf of the fledgling Church. Centuries of Christians have benefitted and centuries more will also do so. Praise God! Rejoice! Paul is dead and gone, though. He no longer suffers anything. The "now" of verse 24 was the first century, not the 21st century.

This might be the only explicit example of a "voluntary internal suffering" in the entire list, so I wonder why so many other verses that do not specify suffering are conflated with this text.

I will suggest two avenues for consideration. The first has to do predominantly with Romans 7-8 and the notion we do what we don't want to do and do what we don't want to do because of the law of sin and death that exists in the world and the fact there is a more superior, more powerful, and more promising law at work within us, the law of the Spirit, by which nothing can separate us from the love of God that is Christ Jesus. The other is the benefit of maturity, of putting away the elementary things of Christ and moving on toward as described in Hebrews 6 in submission to the provision of Christ as described in the beginning of Ephesians 4.

Notice that is an already-accomplished ongoing condition. It is not about the future in any way, shape or form.



Based on the contents of the posts it looks like there is some (presumably) unintended misuse of scripture whereby suffering is perceived where it is nowhere stated, internal conditions are perceived where none is stated, and future conditions are perceived where none are stated.


So, please clarify specifically what you mean by "voluntary internal suffering," because that phrase is not found in scripture.

1) not destroyed by self-denial but we are not our own either we belong to God purchase with the precious blood of Jesus. Acts 20:28 2 cor 6:16 God’s people. Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing.

2. Without God’s help we cannot even form one good thought.

For every salutary (meritorious) act internal supernatural grace of God is absolutely necessary.

3. Patience imply’s or involves suffering, self-denial, and penance.

4. Jn 15:5 not 15:15 apart from Christ and grace we can do nothing, we must be in union with Christ and endure all things to the hour of death to be saved. Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 there are verses about fasting and alms and Jesus does not say if you fast but when you fast.

5.” Jesus did it all for us” and we don’t need to do anything, “it is finished? Please explain? Also
Explain how Jesus shedding His blood in the garden was not suffering, why did God send an angel to comfort Him? And he out model in everything, even suffering.
No servant is greater than the master.

 

[donadams]

Of course, this gets into the old dilemma of 'how much are we involved with our sanctification?' and 'how much is the Trinity involved?'
Besides, once 'in Christ', can a person extricate himself? I would say, 'no'.

Scripture says yes

Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

You think Judas was saved?

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Jn 15:15 abide in me that’s an if! If you choose to abide!

Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end shall be saved
If you endure

Even Jn 3:16 says believes present tense

Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptism shall be saved !

Many more thanks

 

[prism]

For every salutary (meritorious) act internal supernatural grace of God is absolutely necessary.

God's grace is necessary in every case, but I hope you are not referring to 'our meritorious acts', because Scripture reveals no such thing.