Biblical Truth vs Tradition (some thoughts for the Holiday season)

[Ben Avraham]

HAPPY HOLIDAYS TO ALL (A look at Tradition vs Biblical Truth)

I would like to extend a "Shalom Aleichem" (peace be upon you) to all of you on this Forum site. Thank you all for your reading support and your comments. December is the "Hanukkah/Christmas/New Year's" month of Festivities and a time or times to gather with family and eat special festive meals, and just enjoy the fellowship.

We have celebrated the "Festival of Lights" (Hag HaUrim) or "Hanukkah" (Festival of Dedication). And this evening, according to the Gregorian Calendar, is Christmas Eve. I know that almost all families in Christendom celebrate Christmas with the "Tree and Trimmings." It is a time to encourage families to get together in warm fellowship, despite different traditions. Some will go buy fresh-cut pine trees and decorate them, others will buy plastic ones. Some families will go all out and spend $$$ on decorations, lights, the works. Some prefer the simple things, just time with their sons, daughters, husbands, wives, and sit around the dinner table with a turkey or a Leg of Lamb, wine, and eggnog.

But what about the 25th of December being "Christ's Birthdate?" Is it true? I would say no. However, it is "tradition", and has been for the last 2000 years. Does it matter the exact date and time of his birth? maybe not. If God had wanted us to know the exact date of Jesus' birth, I am sure He would have guided the writers of the New Covenant scriptures to write something like: "And it happened that on the 10th day, of the 7th month, during the reign of Caesar Augustus, and King Herod of Judeah, during the time of the Census, that in Bethlehem, was born Christ the King, Emmanuel..." Yet nothing like that is recorded, yet we can deduce through simple mathematics and using the Hebrew calendar, the approximate time of year our Savior was born. So, this article is of educational value, "that we might know."

The date "25th of December" is a date imposed by Rome on or around A.D. 350. The date was known as "Saturnalia," the "birthdate" of the gods of Rome. The emperor Constantine wanted to help the pagans embrace Christianity, so he moved the time of year when Yeshua was born to fit in with the pagan gods of Rome (mainly, the sun gods). We must remember, however, the "event", not the "date". Yet one often wonders, when was Messiah really born?

In the gospels, the sheep were in the fields with the shepherds, and in December, it is cold and wet, so the shepherds would have been keeping the sheep in covered shelters. Agustus Cesar would not have conducted a census during this time, as it would have been difficult for people to travel in the wet and cold weather. That rules out December as the time of the "birth" of Messiah Yeshua.

In 1 Chronicles 24:7-18, it states that King David divided up the priesthood into 24 groups or orders of families. Each family would serve two weeks in the Temple throughout the year. Zachariah, the husband of Elizabeth, was of the order of Abijah, which was the 8th group of priestly service. The groups started at the beginning of the Jewish year, the First of Nisan, which was in April. (Exodus 12:1). So, group 1 and 2 would have served in April (corresponding to our Gregorian calendar). Groups 3 and 4 would have served in May. Groups 5 and 6 would have served in the month of June. Groups 7 and 8 would have served in July. Since Zechariah was part of the last group, group 8, of "Abijah" (Lucas 1:5), he finished his term of service probably by the end of July, and he went home to be with his wife after that, in August.

We need to realize that the Hebraic months overlap the Gregorian months, as the Hebraic months are set by the phases of the moon, while the Gregorian months are set by the sun, which never changes. When Zachariah finished his term, it would have been towards the end of July or early August. Elizabeth became pregnant with John the Baptist around this time. Luke 1:17 states that "John the Baptist would come in the Spirit of Elijah." During the time of Passover, the Prophet Elijah is symbolically at the Passover Seder. If we count 9 months from August, we get to April, the time of Passover, the time of John the Baptist's birth.

We know that the gospels state that in the 6th month (Luke 1:24-26) that being the time of Elizabeth's pregnancy, the Angel Gabriel visited Mary and told her she would carry in her womb Yeshua, and nine months later, he would be born. So, if we count 6 months from July-August time, we would come to December-January time. It may possibly be that God's precious seed was implanted in Mary's womb during the 8 days of Hanukkah 2000 years ago, which may have come during the later part of December. Only God knows. It would be fitting that the "LIGHT of the world, come into this world, during the "Festival of Lights". (coming into the womb of Mary)

If we count 9 months from then, we end up with late September or early October as the time of birth of Messiah Yeshua, perhaps during the "Feast of Tabernacles," which means "God coming to "tabernacle" among mankind, which is exactly what He did through Yeshua!

During this time, the weather was still OK to have sheep in the field. No room in the Inn was because the Feast of Tabernacles was a feast when all families had to make their way to Jerusalem to celebrate, and would have been renting rooms in all the areas surrounding Jerusalem, which included Bethlehem. "Beit-Lechem" (The House of Bread), where the "Bread of Life" was born." The Greek word used for "Inn" was not an "Inn" at all, but rather the top-floor guest room of a house. The bottom level would have been used for the animals, that is, where Joseph and Mary ended up; the top floor was in use by other guests. The Feast of Tabernacles plus the census would have made it difficult to find a decent room at that time.

This would have been a good time to conduct the census by Augustus Cesar since the weather was still good and people were already on the move. But no one, of course, knows the exact date, as I mentioned, only the time of year.

So, to say that "God came to man" during December, would still be true, as he came as the "Seed implanted" in the Virgin Mary, perhaps during the "Festival of Lights" the "Light of the World" came, and was born to live among men and women, nine months later during the time of the Feast of Tabernacles, to be that "Holy and sinless Tabernacle" to teach Torah, to heal the sick, and raise the dead, and to die for the sins of the world.

Gifts? presents anyone? Yes, but anytime during the year would be good for gift giving. For graduations, weddings, birthdays, even a gift for "closing that 10 million dollar contract deal, Thank you, Ben Avraham, here is your 2025 Mercedes." (Sure, OK, I'll take it to the Mercedes dealer and sell it back to them, then buy a VW mini-bus) then save the leftover $$ (cheaper on gas)

So, what about the Santa Claus thing? The real meaning of Christmas has been diverted to someone who has "God" qualities. A fake and substitute God! Sadly enough. Santa knows who has been good and bad. Only GOD knows that! (and Santa too? Hello?) How can one person travel all over the world in one single night and bring presents out of one single sack? Only GOD can see all over the world and be all over the world at once. Jesus took 5 loaves and 2 fish from one basket and fed 5000, (kind of like a bottomless basket). Is Santa's sack bottomless? Santa gives kids what they want, God gives us what we need. Santa comes into the house via the chimney "Via FIRE!) (and if you don't have a chimney? How does he come in? Squeeze under the door? The Holy Spirit comes into us by the heart!

New Year's resolutions! Don't even go there. You'll break them soon enough. "God, I promise no more cussing this year. Hey, who spilled the wine on the rug? Why you dirty little *&^%$! (Oh, sorry about that, God. Yeah, my bad!) Better yet, let's start this new Gregorian year of 2026 with desires addressed to God:

Heavenly Father, I ask you to give me the ability to control my temper this new year, to make me more sensitive to others' needs, educate me more in your WORD, help me be a better husband, wife, father, mother,...help me to grow more in your Spirit, through your Holy Spirit....

We can ask for those things. Let's not promise anything! So, Happy Holidays to all. Enjoy time with your families, enjoy the lights, the special food, and the smells. (Roast leg of lamb, anyone?) Yeah, I wish. Let's remember the event of the birth of Messiah Yeshua, God incarnate, the "Light of the World," coming to planet Earth as the "Bread of Life" via the "House of Bread" (Beit-Lechem), Bethlehem.

 

[Hobie]

Well, thats just the tip of the iceberg so to speak, as the church at Rome basically took all the traditions from Ancient Paganism and let them into the church. We see the "tradition" the church at Rome was following did exist, but it wasnt the tradition of the Apostles as we can see from the changes. But there was a tradition, the corruption crept in as the church in the early stages picked up pagan oral teachings from Greek and Hellenistic sources. But the origin if one looks comes all the way from Babylon, if you take a look at the College of Pontiffs or Collegium Pontificum which was a body of the ancient Roman state whose members were the highest-ranking priests of the pagan religion. It consisted of the Pontifex Maximus, the Vestal Virgins, the Rex Sacrorum, and the flamines.

The Pontifex Maximus was the head and most important member of the college and held the sole power in appointing members to the other priesthoods. There were four chief colleges of priests in ancient Rome, the most illustrious of which was that of the pontifices. The others were those of the augures, the quindecimviri sacris faciundis, and the epulones. The same person could be a member of more than one of these groups, including the Pontifex Maximus, who was president of the college. By the third century B.C., the pontiffs had assumed control of the state religious system. So we see where the title "pontiff" and its position was in the pagan priesthood.

The Rex Sacrorum, during the Roman Republic, was chosen by the pontifex maximus from a list of patricians submitted by the College of Pontiffs. The rex sacrorum wore a toga, the undecorated soft "shoeboot" (calceus), and carried a ceremonial ax; as a priest of archaic Roman religion, he sacrificed capite velato, with head covered. At Rome, the Rex Sacrorum priesthood was deliberately depoliticized; the rex sacrorum was not elected, and the comitia or the legislative assemblies of the Roman Republic merely witnessed his inauguration. Like the flamen Dialis but in contrast to the pontiffs and augurs, the rex was barred from a political and military career. It is not clear if the position carried over into the church as the Cardinals from what I can see, but the early on, Cardinals wore a violet or blue cape unless granted the privilege of wearing red, scarlet garments — the blood-like red was said to symbolize a Cardinal's willingness to die for his faith. But the Rex Sacrorum priesthood were appointed to counsel the Pontiff much as Cardinals which also were appointed to counsel the Pontiff in Rome. Historically, Cardinals were the clergy of the city of Rome, serving the Bishop of Rome as the Pope, but in the twelfth century the practice of appointing ecclesiastics from outside Rome as cardinals began, with each of them being assigned a church in Rome as his titular church, or being linked with one of the suburbicarian dioceses, while still being incardinated in a diocese other than that of Rome. There was created the College of Cardinals which is a body of all cardinals of the Catholic Church and a function of the college is to advise the pope about church matters when he summons them to an ordinary consistory.

Now lets take a look at the Vestal Virgins who were priestesses of Vesta, goddess of the hearth. The College of the Vestals and its well-being was regarded as fundamental to the continuance and security of Rome, as embodied by their cultivation of the sacred fire that could not be allowed to go out. Around age 6 to 10, girls were chosen for this position and were obligated to perform the rites and obligations, including remaining chaste, for 30 years. The chief Vestal (Virgo Vestalis Maxima or Vestalium Maxima, "greatest of the Vestals") oversaw the efforts of the Vestals, and was present in the College of Pontiffs. The Vestals were freed of the usual social obligations to marry and bear children, and took a vow of chastity. Now we see where the nuns and there position and duties came from.

Then there were the flamens who were priests in charge of fifteen official cults of Roman religion, each assigned to a particular god. The three major flamens (flamines maiores) were the Flamen Dialis, the high priest of Jupiter; the Flamen Martialis, who cultivated Mars; and the Flamen Quirinalis, devoted to Quirinus. When a vacancy occurred, the persons were nominated to it and consecrated (inaugurabatur) by the Pontifex Maximus. So we see where the position and duties of the priests come from, and you can see why they were divided into orders, each devoted for a particular god.

So the bishop of Rome basically took the Collegium Pontificum and imposed it at will and the original teachings and practices of the original Christian church as depicted in the Acts of the Apostles was set aside or subtly shifted to allow the changes to take place. That was just the institutions and their positions, to say nothing of the pagan doctrines they brought in...

'The Catholic Church, highly organized, moved forward to plant churches and propagate her doctrines in many lands. Relentlessly she moved forward from victory to victory. What was the secret of her rapid growth? The answer is simple. She conquered by consuming the religions about her.'

In a college textbook, An Introduction to Medieval Europe by Thompson and Johnson, page 33, the writers explain the survival of Paganism.

"Paganism as a distinct and separate religion may perhaps be said to have died, although, driven out of the cities, it found refuge in the countryside, where it lingered long—and whence, indeed, its very name is derived.

In a very real sense, however, it never died at all. It was only transformed and absorbed into Christianity. It is this transformation, and the absorption of classical culture in its various manifestations into the very substance of Christianity which, perhaps more than anything else, explains why after its toleration Christianity swept on with such relentless force to become the undisputed- heir of the whole complex of Mediterranean civilization."

It is very evident that many of the doctrines and practices of the Catholic Church are Pagan in their origin. Here is a good explanation I came across...Mariolatry was established as a doctrine of the Catholic Church at the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Under the influence of Paganism it was felt that another mediator was needed. The Bible says there is but one mediator and he is specifically named. "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus." (1 Tim. 2:5) Not only was Mary added as the chief mediator but there followed a multitude of other mediators in the form of Patron saints.

Pilgrimages and the veneration of relics was borrowed from Paganism. In the fourth century Saint Helena, mother of Constantine and empress of the Roman Empire, made a pilgrimage to Jerusalem where she is supposed to have found fragments of the true cross on which Christ was crucified. By the sixth century the belief in relics and their power to work miracles was widespread. Today relics form a vital part of the Catholic religion. The silence of the Scriptures and the testimony of historians make it evident that the veneration of relics came from Paganism and not from God.

The Rosary which is so dear to Catholics in their prayers is of very ancient origin. It is almost universal among all the pagan nations. Reference is made to it in Hindu sacred books. The Brahmins of Hindustan have long employed the rosary. It is a common thing among the adherents of the Buddhist faith. It is pagan in its origin and use. The Bible does not in the least way infer the need of a rosary to aid us in our prayer to God.

The doctrine of Purgatory is pagan in its origin. The Roman poet Virgil (70 B. C. - 19 B. C.) wrote of purgatory showing the pagans believed in it long before the Catholic Church taught it. If purgatory were Christian it could be found in the Bible.

Transubstantiation, which did not become a doctrine of the Catholic Church until the 13th century, is pagan. This Romish doctrine means that the bread and wine when blessed by the priest becomes the actual flesh and blood of Christ. The writer has witnessed a midnight mass (Mass is the center of Catholic worship) and the whole service was reeking with Paganism and Judaism. Many may say it is a beautiful service but to others it is a reminder of the pagan sacrifices and of the pagan mystery cults. If the doctrine of transubstantiation were Christian why did not the churches teach it in the first centuries?

The sign of the cross so frequently made by devout Catholics does not come from Christianity but from the Pagans. Actually the same sign now used by the adherents of Rome was used in the Babylonian Mysteries before Christ was ever crucified!

The infallibility of the pope which was not declared until 1870 could not be a Christian doctrine. Many historians believe that the idea for the powers of the pope with the College of Cardinals came from the Pagan College of Pontiff s with its Sovereign Pontiff which had no doubt been in Rome from the earliest times and must have been framed on the order of the original Council of Pontiffs at Babylon. ....http://www.pbministries.org/History/Goodwin_&_Frazier/churches_01.htm

 

[Ben Avraham]

Thank you for the info, very interesting

 

[Hobie]

Its astounding the amount of things they brought into the church...

"Here is how Pagan Rome was converted to Papal Rome:

Roman Empire (Imperium Romanum) renamed: Roman Catholic Church

Curia (legal body of Senators) slight name change: Curia (legal body of Cardinals)

Roman Emperor renamed: Roman Pope (head of all church and state affairs)

Civil government matters of state: Extra-Ordinary affairs (matters of civil-state governments)

Religious orders matters: Church “ecclesiastical” matters

Roman College of Senators renamed: College of Cardinals

Magistrate of College of Senators renamed: Dean of College of Cardinals

Departments of the Roman Senatorial Curia renamed: Congregations

Political Ambassador renamed: Pro-Nuncio (highest civil ambassador sent to other governments, ie Washington DC, London etc)

......Roman Senators renamed: Cardinals

Roman Governors renamed: Archbishops

Roman Senator with no territory: Bishop (Code of Canon Law 376)

(Large) Roman Province renamed: Archdiocese

(Small) Roman Territory renamed: Diocese

Imperial Chair of Jupiter where Caesar sat renamed: Throne of St. Peter

Vestal Virgins renamed: Nuns

Pontifex Maximus (high priest of College of Senators) renamed: Supreme Pontiff of College of Cardinals
Pontiff or “high priest ” of a pagan religious order (Zues, Apollo, Diana, Mars, Jupiter, Baal, Dionysys, Pythia etc) same name: Pontiff
A Pontiff (Latin: “pontifex”) means bridge-builder or priest between man and the gods of the underworld.

The Roman Calendar and Holy Days of the gods renamed: Calendar Holidays of the Saints

Voice of the gods speaking through Caesar: Ex-Cathedra: Voice of God speaking through Pope

Meeting of the Pontiffs (high priests) of the pagan religious orders renamed: Ecumenical Council of the Bishops

Legal act of creating a god (of a living or dead human, as was done to most of the Caesars) “Apotheosis of the Gods” renamed: Canonization of the Saints

A decree of Caesar (dictator for life): Pope’s infallible Dogma

Praying to a dead human god renamed: Praying to a saint"
....Papal Rome as a Continuation of Pagan Rome

Well, I came across some comparisons some time ago that are eye opening to say the least. Here is what I came across...

'Lets compare some of the pagan sun god beliefs of Baal with what has been picked up and 'christianized' by the Catholic church and some pagan beliefs and doctrines even allowed into Protestant churches.

PAGAN BELIEFS- The nativity of the Sun, the birth of Tammuz Dec. 25
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The nativity of Jesus, Christmas Dec 25

PAGAN BELIEFS- The Midsummer festival held Jun 24
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The Nativity of St. John held June 24

PAGAN BELIEFS- The assumption of Semiramus who became the mother godess
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The assumption of Mary, who became the mother of God

PAGAN BELIEFS- The mother goddess was worshipped as the Queen of Heaven. Jer. 7:18
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The Virgin Mary worshipped as the Queen of Heaven.

PAGAN BELIEFS-Cakes decorated to the goddess with a "+" drawn on it. Jer. 44:17,19
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Hot cross buns

PAGAN BELIEFS- 40 days fasting for Tammuz, Ezek. 8:14
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- 40 days of Lent

PAGAN BELIEFS- Pagan festival of Easter. Ezek 8:16
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The festival of Easter

PAGAN BELIEFS- The resurrection of Tammuz at Easter and the procession of graven images during holy week
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The procession of graven images of Jesus, Mary, and Peter, and of the saints

PAGAN BELIEFS- Veneration of graven images of Baal, Ishtar, Tammuz and lesser gods in the heavens
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Veneration of graven images of Jesus, Mary, Peter, and of the "lesser" saints in the heavens

PAGAN BELIEFS- The belief of immortality of the soul and burning place of torment.
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The belief of immortality of the soul and burning place of torment.

PAGAN BELIEFS- The doctrine of purgatory
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The doctrine of purgatory

PAGAN BELIEFS- The belief of the dead visiting the living, feast held for all in November, (All souls day)
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The festival of all souls day held Nov. 2, and all saints day held Nov. 1 (All souls day)

PAGAN BELIEFS- Burning incense and candles Jer 11:17; Ezek 8:11
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The burning of incense and candles

PAGAN BELIEFS- Chants and repetative prayers. Beaded prayer chains.
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Gregorian chants and the Rosary

PAGAN BELIEFS- Infant baptism, and sprinkling of holy water
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Infant baptism, and sprinkling of holy water

PAGAN BELIEFS- The Pagan high priest king believed to be the incarnate of the Sun god
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The Pope proclaims to be Christ's Vicar (replacement) here on Earth. It is also recorded in numerous documents that the pope believes he is god on earth.

PAGAN BELIEFS- Phallic symbol of the male sex organ placed on roofs as a sign of allegiance with Baal
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Largest phallic symbol in center of St. Peter's square.

PAGAN BELIEFS- Solar wheel as symbol for Baal worship can be found carved into ancient as well as modern Buddhist temples,, carved into ancient ornament representing Osiris. Stone carvings showing a whell to represent and Assyrio Babylonian altar.
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- St Peter's square has largest solar wheel on planet. ALL Catholic churches have numerous solar wheels in stain glass windows as well as many other areas of the church. Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris sports a very huge one on it's face. There is a great one in ceiling as well as the floor tiles of the monastery of St. Ignatius Loyola in Spain. Numerous paintings, statues, ornaments, and letterheads of all Catholic churches have one or more "solar wheels" depicted upon them.

PAGAN BELIEFS- Alternating rays of the sun burst used to represent unity of "man and woman" common in all aspects of Paganism. (Curved ray = female "yonic" Straight ray = male "phallic")
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Monstrance of Catholicism as well as many paintings and sculptures all depict same rays of both the "phallic and yonic" symbolism can be found literally all over the Roman Catholic church

PAGAN BELIEFS- Statues of a "Madonna" found in all Pagan cults as well as Egyptian Madonna Isis with her son Horus, or Hindu cults with Divaki and her son Krishna.
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Statues of Mary can be found in all Catholic churches holding baby Jesus.

PAGAN BELIEFS- Dagon, which was the God of Babylon and Philistia and is mentioned several times in scripture in Judges 16:23, 1 Samuel 5:2-7, and 1 Chronicles 1:10. Babylonian fish-god (half man half fish) was depicted by Pagan high priests by wearing a fish head mitre (head dress) upon a mans head to symbolize man and fish joining when "sun god" set into the ocean. (Neptune = case in point. Half man half fish) One particular Biblical diety = "Dagon" Dag=fish On=sun. In Strong's Hebrew Dictionary, this is the definition for Dagon: 1712. Dagown, daw-gohn'; from H1709; the fish-god; Dagon, a Philistine deity: - According to Ugaritic and other documents link Baal as the son of El, or Dagon.
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Mitres are worn by all Popes of Catholcism
http://www.tofm.org/papacy/pope_mitre.htm

PAGAN BELIEFS- The Roman sun-god with the alternating yonic and phallic symbols surrounding his head was found carved in excavated Roman bath houses in England. It is alos found as "Apollo" on the facade of the Pergamum Museum in East Berlin.
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- Almost all Catholic churches have the exact same carving above their pulpits, pillars, on statues, as well as carved into ceilings above altars. Some Catholic churches actually have it carved into the Eucharist itself.

PAGAN BELIEFS- Persian sun-god Mithra is also depicted with the globe in hand as a sign ruler of the Universe.
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The Vatican has a solid gold statues of Jesus with the globe in hand, plus a black marble statue called "the black virgin of Montserrat" and a statue of a "child Jesus" with globe in hand.

PAGAN BELIEFS- The first day of the week kept sacred to honor the Persian sun god Mithra. "SUN"day
CATHOLIC DOCTRINES- The admitted change of 7th day Sabbath to "SUN"day......The harlot of Babylon

 

[durg]

I love being Catholic. Maybe this isn't the place for me.

 

[Arial]

I love being Catholic. Maybe this isn't the place for me.

Don't let @Hobie discourage you. He is just one person.

 

[durg]

Don't let @Hobie discourage you. He is just one person.

Thanks. I struggle so much these days. I'm not only disappointed with but hurt for the overall church and the awful attitude of believers. I lay in bed at night and wonder if forum Christian realize what they're doing. The world's view of Christianity doesn't distinguish between Catholic and Protestant. To them Christianity is one whole ball of wax so when one Christian slanders the other it reflects on us all. So, I would just assume get away from it.

 

[Josheb]

Thanks. I struggle so much these days. I'm not only disappointed with but hurt for the overall church and the awful attitude of believers. I lay in bed at night and wonder if forum Christian realize what they're doing. The world's view of Christianity doesn't distinguish between Catholic and Protestant. To them Christianity is one whole ball of wax so when one Christian slanders the other it reflects on us all. So, I would just assume get away from it.

Let me encourage you to give Deitrich Bonhoeffer's "Life Together" and Francis Schaeffer's trilogy (or the less expensive "He is There and He is Not Silent") a read. The first book is a commentary about living the Christian life among other Christians. Its content was life-changing for me. Here's a relevant sample of what you'll find,

”Christianity means community through Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ. No Christian community is any more or less than this… We belong to one another only through and in Jesus Christ. What does this mean? It means, first, that a Christian needs others because of Christ. It means, second, that a Christian comes to others only through Christ. It means, third, that in Jesus Christ we have been chosen from eternity, accepted in time, and united for eternity. First, the Christian is a man who no longer seeks his salvation, his deliverance, his justification in himself, but in Jesus Christ alone. He knows that God’s word in Jesus pronounces him guilty, even when he does not feel his guilt, and God’s word in Jesus Christ pronounces him not guilty and righteous, even when he does not feel that he is righteous at all. The Christian no longer lives of himself, by his own claims and his own justification. He lives wholly by God’s word pronounced upon him, whether the word declares him guilty or innocent.”​

”In Christian brotherhood everything depends upon its being clear right from the beginning, first, that Christian brotherhood is not an ideal, but a divine reality. Second, that Christian brotherhood is a spiritual and not a psychic reality.”​

”He who loves his dream of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.”​

”…he who can no longer listen to his brother will soon be no longer listening to God, either; he will be doing nothing but prattle in the presence of God, too. This is the beginning of the death of the spiritual life, and in the end there is nothing left but spiritual chatter and clerical condescension arrayed in pious words… Anyone who thinks his time is too valuable to spend keeping quiet will eventually have no time for God and his brother, but only for himself and for his own follies.”​

The book was published posthumously. Bonhoeffer wrote the notes while he was living underground avoiding Nazi prosecution during WWII. He died in a concentration camp. The second book is useful (necessary, imo) for developing a Christian worldview that can and will address all the circumstances of life including, in the case of this op, the diversity of thought, doctrine, and practice among Christians regarding holy days and the real and perceived influences of the world on those days. Both authors are Protestant (Bonhoeffer was Lutheran and Schaeffer was Presbyterian), but don't hold that against them . I do not think you will find anything inconsistent or objectionable with your religious affiliation or practice in either book. Both men actively sought to bring Christians together under the auspices of Christ. If you read either, then post something in the Book Review section of the forum where we can discuss those views.

You might also find some comfort in these posts HERE, and the fact the gospel has readily assimilated many pagan practices and subjugated them under the authority of Christ. All of those examples are demonstrations of Christ's sovereignty but many refuse to see them that way. They'd rather find superiority in division and the unstated (and fallacious) appeal to purity. Most importantly, remember we can discuss our doctrinal differences in goodwill and good faith, but personal attacks or criticism are prohibited by the TOS. On occasions when that happens just report the posts and walk away. None of us are perfect but we all know the best rules are...

• Keep the posts about the post and not the posters,
• Do not feed the trolls,
• Do not take anything in an internet discussion board personally,
• Despite his blunt style, Josh is always good for a hug (even when we disagree).

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to reading more from you .

 

[durg]

Let me encourage you to give Deitrich Bonhoeffer's "Life Together" and Francis Schaeffer's trilogy (or the less expensive "He is There and He is Not Silent") a read. The first book is a commentary about living the Christian life among other Christians. Its content was life-changing for me. Here's a relevant sample of what you'll find,

”Christianity means community through Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ. No Christian community is any more or less than this… We belong to one another only through and in Jesus Christ. What does this mean? It means, first, that a Christian needs others because of Christ. It means, second, that a Christian comes to others only through Christ. It means, third, that in Jesus Christ we have been chosen from eternity, accepted in time, and united for eternity. First, the Christian is a man who no longer seeks his salvation, his deliverance, his justification in himself, but in Jesus Christ alone. He knows that God’s word in Jesus pronounces him guilty, even when he does not feel his guilt, and God’s word in Jesus Christ pronounces him not guilty and righteous, even when he does not feel that he is righteous at all. The Christian no longer lives of himself, by his own claims and his own justification. He lives wholly by God’s word pronounced upon him, whether the word declares him guilty or innocent.”​

”In Christian brotherhood everything depends upon its being clear right from the beginning, first, that Christian brotherhood is not an ideal, but a divine reality. Second, that Christian brotherhood is a spiritual and not a psychic reality.”​

”He who loves his dream of a community more than the Christian community itself becomes a destroyer of the latter, even though his personal intentions may be ever so honest and earnest and sacrificial.”​

”…he who can no longer listen to his brother will soon be no longer listening to God, either; he will be doing nothing but prattle in the presence of God, too. This is the beginning of the death of the spiritual life, and in the end there is nothing left but spiritual chatter and clerical condescension arrayed in pious words… Anyone who thinks his time is too valuable to spend keeping quiet will eventually have no time for God and his brother, but only for himself and for his own follies.”​

The book was published posthumously. Bonhoeffer wrote the notes while he was living underground avoiding Nazi prosecution during WWII. He died in a concentration camp. The second book is useful (necessary, imo) for developing a Christian worldview that can and will address all the circumstances of life including, in the case of this op, the diversity of thought, doctrine, and practice among Christians regarding holy days and the real and perceived influences of the world on those days. Both authors are Protestant (Bonhoeffer was Lutheran and Schaeffer was Presbyterian), but don't hold that against them . I do not think you will find anything inconsistent or objectionable with your religious affiliation or practice in either book. Both men actively sought to bring Christians together under the auspices of Christ. If you read either, then post something in the Book Review section of the forum where we can discuss those views.

You might also find some comfort in these posts HERE, and the fact the gospel has readily assimilated many pagan practices and subjugated them under the authority of Christ. All of those examples are demonstrations of Christ's sovereignty but many refuse to see them that way. They'd rather find superiority in division and the unstated (and fallacious) appeal to purity. Most importantly, remember we can discuss our doctrinal differences in goodwill and good faith, but personal attacks or criticism are prohibited by the TOS. On occasions when that happens just report the posts and walk away. None of us are perfect but we all know the best rules are...

• Keep the posts about the post and not the posters,
• Do not feed the trolls,
• Do not take anything in an internet discussion board personally,
• Despite his blunt style, Josh is always good for a hug (even when we disagree).

Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to reading more from you .

I read "He is not "silent" in 1970. I went to a Castle run by Christian in Austria and Francis Shaefer often visited there.

I've been on every side of the isle. Pastor, deacon, Trustee, etc. I've had many bad experiences with pastors. Crazy ones. Makes me feel like Christians are crazy people sometimes.

 

[Hobie]

I love being Catholic. Maybe this isn't the place for me.

I come from Catholic background, and being from South Florida a lot of friends and acquaintances are also Catholic. So its not anything of issues with the brethren, just the doctrines and declarations..

 

[Josheb]

I read "He is not "silent" in 1970. I went to a Castle run by Christian in Austria and Francis Shaefer often visited there.

Well then, a worldview that addresses.....

I've been on every side of the isle. Pastor, deacon, Trustee, etc. I've had many bad experiences with pastors. Crazy ones. Makes me feel like Christians are crazy people sometimes.

...should already exist. I cannot wait to see it reflected in future posts . Maybe it needs a few minor adjustments to address the inanity that often exists in this medium . As you'll learn if you stick around, I am not a big fan of Dispensational Premillennialism (DP) and I spend a fair amount of time in various discussion boards 1) reading Dispies tell me I don't know what I'm talking about and then, when I provide the proof quoting the words of Dispensationalist leaders themselves, 2) reading ad hominem.

It's inane.

It's good for all involved that Jesus loves me . He loves you, too . Keep that in mind when you're discussing RCC doctrine and practice. Personally, I think DPism is the most divisive (and unscriptural) theology in modern Christendom, but others think RCCism is the worst thing since split pea soup. I'm not an RCC-ragger but I do disagree with a lot that occurs within that institution. I just happen to think DPism is much worse. I try to remain polite and respectful. Btw, in case you haven't yet figured it out, this forum isn't just Prot heavy, it decidedly weighted toward the Reformed-thinking ilk .

Here's another Bonhoeffer quote from the book I find useful to remember,

”Often we combat our evil thoughts most effectively if we absolutely refuse to allow them to be expressed in words. It is certain that the spirit of self-justification can be overcome only by the Spirit of grace, nevertheless, isolated thoughts of judgment can be curbed and smothered by never allowing them the right to be uttered, except as a confession of sin… He who holds his tongue in check controls both mind and body (Jms. 3). Thus it is a decisive rule of every Christian fellowship that each individual is prohibited from saying much that occurs to him… to speak about a brother covertly is forbidden, even under the cloak of help and good will; for it is precisely in this guise that the spirit of hatred among brothers always creeps in when it is seeking to create mischief.”​

​

“Where this discipline of the tongue is practiced right from the beginning, each individual will make a matchless discovery. He will be able to cease from constantly scrutinizing the other person, judging him, condemning him, putting him in his particular place where he can gain ascendancy over him and thus doing violence to him as a person. Now he can allow the brother to exist as a completely free person, as God made him to be. His view expands and, to his amazement, for the first time he sees, shining above his brethren, the richness of God’s creative glory. God did not make this person as I would have made him. He did not give him to me as a brother for me to dominate and control, but in order that I might find above him the Creator. Now the other person, in the freedom with which he was created, becomes the occasion for joy, whereas before he was only a nuisance and an affliction. God does not will that I should fashion the other person according to my image; rather in his very freedom from me God made this person in His image. I can never know beforehand how God’s image should appear in others. That image always manifests a completely new and unique form that comes solely from God’s free and sovereign creation”​

God, in His infinite wisdom, saw fit to make seven billion people and no two of them be alike. Apparently, He likes diversity . He's seen fit to manifest His image differently more than seven billion ways, and that doesn't include all the billions of people who lived in centuries past! On top of that there are the additional images of God those in Christ bear.

Colossians 1:15 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

So, what can I learn from the image of God born in you (or @Ben Avraham, @Hobie, or @Arial ) today ?

James 3:3-10
Now if we put the bits into the horses’ mouths so that they will obey us, we direct their entire body as well. Look at the ships also, though they are so great and are driven by strong winds, are still directed by a very small rudder wherever the inclination of the pilot desires. So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, the very world of iniquity; the tongue is set among our members as that which defiles the entire body, and sets on fire the course of our life, and is set on fire by hell. For every species of beasts and birds, of reptiles and creatures of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by the human race. But no one can tame the tongue; it is a restless evil and full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in the likeness of God; from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.


But that is the nature of discussion boards. Threads asserting critical (and dubious) insinuations about Christmas under the guise of "Biblical truth" are just one of many examples. Come on in. Join the fray .