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Arminianism vs Calvinism.

Do you lean toward Arminianism or Calvinism.

  • Arminianism

    Votes: 3 27.3%
  • Calvinism.

    Votes: 7 63.6%
  • Undecided

    Votes: 1 9.1%

  • Total voters
    11

Rella

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YES. Always looking right.
Please post your views of belief on either Arminianism or Calvinism.... with Biblical references and support.
 
Things would be more interesting if the poll said who voted for what.
 
Things would be more interesting if the poll said who voted for what.
So true.

I had thought that anonymity would offer a safety net to those who are, shall we say shy?

And apparently so, as there , at the moment, seems to be a tie...... interesting. 2 to 2

I know who two of them are, I believe, but those two would never be silent.... sigh (Could be wrong)

Should they comment and make their case.... then we would know.

Well, I am the undecided vote ........ having come down from the fence and now riding that see saw, right in the middle, cause as @Ariel suggested... it was getting a little painful.....!
 
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Well, I am the undecided vote
Truth is a difficult commodity to ascertain. Good luck.

Narrow is the way and few that find it (off topic, but analogous)
 
Please post your views of belief on either Arminianism or Calvinism.... with Biblical references and support.
I will get to my views in a bit. Right now--gosh I have to get up off this couch and find some movement.
 
Concerning salvation, which analogy is more correct...

A man is drowning in a lake...all God has to do is throw a life preserver and all the man has to to is grab the life preserver where God draws him to shore and in doing so the man gets saved.

or

A man has already drowned and laying on the bottom of the lake. Dead. All God has to do is jump in, swim to the bottom, grab the man and bring him to the shore....and restore life saving him.
 
Having been Arminist myself for a number of years, I discovered a couple of things about Calvinism at the get go and it is what kept me pursuing it to understand what is very difficult in that it is so alien in this day and age. The first sentence I read in the first book that was given me was about God. Who He is. Something my heart was crying out for and never received from those standing in the pulpit. And every sentence that followed was centered on who God is. This held true for every book I read by Calvinist as I searched for knowledge of the theology.

Along with this came an understanding of grace, that was a word with the meaning of undeserved favor, but had no depth for me. The same with the atonement, justification, propitiation, substitution, the Trinity. All those crucial doctrines of Christianity that were never, and I mean never, expounded on in any of the A'ist churches I attended---and there were many.

I ran everything I read through the scriptures to check it and I could find no places where I found conflict. They all used the whole Bible not just "proof texts" to validate what the were saying. And soon I began to see the truth of what that theology taught on every page.

And now, many years in, I see at once or at least can search it out and find, the errors in what is from the other side "proof texts" isolated from the whole that contradict both the self revelation of God and other teachings of the Bible, and distortions in some scriptures to make it say what they want it to say, ignoring the contradictions it makes.

You asked for supporting scriptures for why we believe as we do, but such a thing is really impossible without it beng specifically directed. But I will give an example of the type of thing that is often used against Calvinism.
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, ---

Any of the scriptures that use some form of the word believe in connection with salvation.

For centuries those verses were taken at face value to be sayin just what they said and nothing more. Believing in Jesus granted eternal life. Then along came those preceding Arminius. Pelagius etc. and began to see those verses differently and add a word in concept to them. Finney in the 19th century lit a match to the idea and started a forest fire that still rages today. And that was the word "choose". Irregardless of Philippians 1:29 that says For you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. And they sacrifice the knowledge of God that He reveals about Himself as not even being in the equation of determining what such passages are saying.

In addition to the scripture quoted from 1 John they determine that "whoever" means "anyone can." And where "all" and "world" are used it always means all individuals, and world always means every individual in the world. As though that is the only possible usage of the words.
 
Concerning salvation, which analogy is more correct...

A man is drowning in a lake...all God has to do is throw a life preserver and all the man has to to is grab the life preserver where God draws him to shore and in doing so the man gets saved.

or

A man has already drowned and laying on the bottom of the lake. Dead. All God has to do is jump in, swim to the bottom, grab the man and bring him to the shore....and restore life saving him.
Dead men don't grab.
Matter of fact, they don't do anything.
 
Having been Arminist myself for a number of years, I discovered a couple of things about Calvinism at the get go and it is what kept me pursuing it to understand what is very difficult in that it is so alien in this day and age. The first sentence I read in the first book that was given me was about God. Who He is. Something my heart was crying out for and never received from those standing in the pulpit. And every sentence that followed was centered on who God is. This held true for every book I read by Calvinist as I searched for knowledge of the theology.

Along with this came an understanding of grace, that was a word with the meaning of undeserved favor, but had no depth for me. The same with the atonement, justification, propitiation, substitution, the Trinity. All those crucial doctrines of Christianity that were never, and I mean never, expounded on in any of the A'ist churches I attended---and there were many.

I ran everything I read through the scriptures to check it and I could find no places where I found conflict. They all used the whole Bible not just "proof texts" to validate what the were saying. And soon I began to see the truth of what that theology taught on every page.

And now, many years in, I see at once or at least can search it out and find, the errors in what is from the other side "proof texts" isolated from the whole that contradict both the self revelation of God and other teachings of the Bible, and distortions in some scriptures to make it say what they want it to say, ignoring the contradictions it makes.

You asked for supporting scriptures for why we believe as we do, but such a thing is really impossible without it beng specifically directed. But I will give an example of the type of thing that is often used against Calvinism.
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, ---

Any of the scriptures that use some form of the word believe in connection with salvation.

For centuries those verses were taken at face value to be sayin just what they said and nothing more. Believing in Jesus granted eternal life. Then along came those preceding Arminius. Pelagius etc. and began to see those verses differently and add a word in concept to them. Finney in the 19th century lit a match to the idea and started a forest fire that still rages today. And that was the word "choose". Irregardless of Philippians 1:29 that says For you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. And they sacrifice the knowledge of God that He reveals about Himself as not even being in the equation of determining what such passages are saying.

In addition to the scripture quoted from 1 John they determine that "whoever" means "anyone can." And where "all" and "world" are used it always means all individuals, and world always means every individual in the world. As though that is the only possible usage of the words.
Having been Arminist myself for a number of years, I discovered a couple of things about Calvinism at the get go and it is what kept me pursuing it to understand what is very difficult in that it is so alien in this day and age. The first sentence I read in the first book that was given me was about God. Who He is. Something my heart was crying out for and never received from those standing in the pulpit. And every sentence that followed was centered on who God is. This held true for every book I read by Calvinist as I searched for knowledge of the theology.

Along with this came an understanding of grace, that was a word with the meaning of undeserved favor, but had no depth for me. The same with the atonement, justification, propitiation, substitution, the Trinity. All those crucial doctrines of Christianity that were never, and I mean never, expounded on in any of the A'ist churches I attended---and there were many.

I ran everything I read through the scriptures to check it and I could find no places where I found conflict. They all used the whole Bible not just "proof texts" to validate what the were saying. And soon I began to see the truth of what that theology taught on every page.

And now, many years in, I see at once or at least can search it out and find, the errors in what is from the other side "proof texts" isolated from the whole that contradict both the self revelation of God and other teachings of the Bible, and distortions in some scriptures to make it say what they want it to say, ignoring the contradictions it makes.

You asked for supporting scriptures for why we believe as we do, but such a thing is really impossible without it beng specifically directed. But I will give an example of the type of thing that is often used against Calvinism.
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, ---

Any of the scriptures that use some form of the word believe in connection with salvation.

For centuries those verses were taken at face value to be sayin just what they said and nothing more. Believing in Jesus granted eternal life. Then along came those preceding Arminius. Pelagius etc. and began to see those verses differently and add a word in concept to them. Finney in the 19th century lit a match to the idea and started a forest fire that still rages today. And that was the word "choose". Irregardless of Philippians 1:29 that says For you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake. And they sacrifice the knowledge of God that He reveals about Himself as not even being in the equation of determining what such passages are saying.

In addition to the scripture quoted from 1 John they determine that "whoever" means "anyone can." And where "all" and "world" are used it always means all individuals, and world always means every individual in the world. As though that is the only possible usage of the words.
Thank you so much Ariel,

Well, explained and reasonably understandable as to why your choice.

Can you tell me why God would have chosen me? And do I know he really has and that I am not suffering from delusions and that I am not

AS CALVIN HAS SAID....

Predestination According to Calvin​

According to John Calvin, predestination is God’s unchangeable decree from before the creation of the world that he would freely save some people (the elect), foreordaining them to eternal life, while the others (the reprobate) would be “barred from access to” salvation and sentenced to “eternal death (180, 184).” Calvin was careful to distinguish the predestination of individuals from the corporate election of nations such as Israel (185). He argued that an explanation of predestination is only complete when it includes the election of individuals (187).

And what truly scares me is that those people who are damned... Because it has been said some would be sentenced to eternal damnation, and because God chose these people before the foundation of the earth, they can do nothing to reverse that action.

But nowhere does Calvin say "this is how you know".

I have always had joy to tell people that I have unwavering faith in Jesus, "The Christs" shedding his blood for my sins and all to profess faith in him.

Is that not necessary? Because I know those who will laugh if said to them.

Calvin aliso said

Calvin described the basis of predestination in several ways. In general he affirmed that there is no basis for election outside of God. Referring to Eph. 1.9, Calvin noted that God purposed election “in Himself,” basing his decree of predestination on “nothing outside Himself (192).” Calvin attributed the salvation of the elect to God’s free decision to favor them (188). He variously described this as God’s “mere generosity (180, 187),” his “freely given mercy (189, 195, 211),” and the “good pleasure of His will (191; cf. Eph. 1.5).” Moreover, Calvin based the damnation of the reprobate solely in God’s decision (189, 200).

But isn't it true that God made the reprobate to be a reprobate? Perhaps so they would not be saved? Or is it that he would use them for
whatever bad needs to happen?

It is very difficult... and I still worry, based on Calvin if I was or was not.

Thanks again for your generous time in your explanation.
 
Thank you so much Ariel,

Well, explained and reasonably understandable as to why your choice.

Can you tell me why God would have chosen me? And do I know he really has and that I am not suffering from delusions and that I am not
That is one of the biggest fears non Calvinist have about the theology. Though I have yet to have one admit it, but I readily admit I had that fear myself which is how I know that I am not alone in it. Thanks for bringing it up because it does need to be addressed.

If we get to the root of why if scares us we will find that all along we have been in a sense and probably sub consciously, that we are putting more trust in our choice than we are willing to trust God in the matter. Especially when we have always heard that if we choose Christ we are saved. To then have someone come along and appear to be saying we cannot rest our assurance there is very frightening.

Our assurance is in what we believe, not what we choose, and as the theology becomes more and more understood, it is a far better assurance because it is built on solid ground rather than just a teaching. It is built on God Himself. The one who can be trusted, and we cannot be. And with it also comes the most profound grasping of His very, very personal love for you. And Jesus dying on the cross becomes a profoundly personal act on your behalf.

Do you believe in the person and work of Jesus alone to have purchased eternal life for you? If the answer is yes, and no matter the degree of that belief since we have to learn and grow in the things of God, then you only do so because God loved you before the foundation of the world, and predestined you to eternal life, and called you at just the right and perfect time, opened your ears to hear the voice of the Shepherd and follow Him. IOW sent the Holy Spirit to regenerate the hard heart dead in tresspasses and sin, quickening you to new life in Christ, applying the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross to you.

As to whether one is simply being dillusionary with themselves that they believe, I have wrestled with that to, and probably will again. Personally when that happens I try to see if I can unbelieve, and I cannot, it is impossible and terrifying. The very fact that the thought of not believing terrifies me suggests strongly that yep, I really believe. And those times serve a purpose, or they did for me. They didn't last long, minutes, but they drove me into prayer and I came out of it stronger.

The statement you quoted from Calvin is not possible to gain a full understanding of the teaching when it is removed from both its full context and without further dedicated study of the entire predestination doctrine.
And what truly scares me is that those people who are damned... Because it has been said some would be sentenced to eternal damnation, and because God chose these people before the foundation of the earth they can do nothing to reverse that action.
God did not choose people for eternal damnation. We are all headed there without His intervention for some. And that He does not do it for all is His decision and He has reasons that are beyond our wheelhouse. He certainly receives glory when the wicked are destroyed. He owes no one anything. He is not obligated to save everyone or anyone at all. Those He gives to Christ receive mercy for He has met sins justice for them. The rest receive justice.
I have always had joy to tell people that I have unwavering faith in Jesus, "The Christs" shedding his blood for my sins and all to profess faith in him.

Is that not necessary? Because I know those who will laugh if said to them.
That is because you do have unwavering faith in Jesus and through His shed blood for your sins. That is what is necessary for salvation. Whether one believes that their choosing to believe that or whether they believe that they believe that because God chose them and gave them the faith to choose to follow Christ and trust in Him, makes no difference in whether one is saved or not. It is not necessary to believe in predestination to be saved. And it is not necessary to not believe that in order to be saved. From mpv I would simply say you are of the elect then.
But isn't it true that God made the reprobate to be a reprobate? Perhaps so they would not be saved? Or is it that he would use them for
whatever bad needs to happen?

There are scriptures that indicate that but they may or may not be misunderstood. Certainly as humans we have tunnel vision compared to God's complete vision. But he does not cause anyone to commit any sin, they do it because they want to and we are all born in Adam. Sinners.
It is very difficult... and I still worry, based on Calvin if I was or was not.
It is difficult. Don't stress over it. Or be fearful. God will take you wherever you need to go.
 
John 6:44:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day."

  • "No one can come to me"= [Total Inability]
    • no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God [Romans 3:11]
  • "unless the Father who sent me"= [Unconditional Election]
    • it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy [Romans 9:16]
  • "draws him,"= [Irresistible Grace]
    • those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified. [Romans 8:30]
  • "and I will raise him up on the last day." = [Preservation of the Saints]
    • "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." [John 10:28]
[Technically, I don’t “lean Calvinist”. I am so far into the MONERGIST zone that I was a 4-point Calvinist before I ever heard the word Calvinist or finished reading through the Gospels while attending a RCC Charismatic Fellowship].
 
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John 6:44:
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day."

  • "No one can come to me"= [Total Inability]
    • no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God [Romans 3:11]
  • "unless the Father who sent me"= [Unconditional Election]
    • it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy [Romans 9:16]
  • "draws him,"= [Irresistible Grace]
    • those he predestined, he also called; and those he called, he also justified; and those he justified, he also glorified. [Romans 8:30]
  • "and I will raise him up on the last day." = [Preservation of the Saints]
    • "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one will snatch them out of my hand." [John 10:28]
[Technically, I don’t “lean Calvinist”. I am so far into the MONERGIST zone that I was a 4-point Calvinist before I ever heard the word Calvinist or finished reading through the Gospels while attending a RCC Charismatic Fellowship].
You were so far into the Monergist zone but only a 4-pointer? I definitely aint understanding that one. :unsure:
 
You were so far into the Monergist zone but only a 4-pointer? I definitely aint understanding that one. :unsure:
It’s a great story.

The Reader’s Digest version is that I never gave any thought at all to the ATONEMENT. The question just never even entered my mind; it was always just good enough for me to know that He had died for me without worrying about who else He had died for. That seemed like His business and none of mine.

The other 4 points I came to on my own and only later learned already had a name (Calvinism/TU*IP).
 
It’s a great story.

The Reader’s Digest version is that I never gave any thought at all to the ATONEMENT. The question just never even entered my mind; it was always just good enough for me to know that He had died for me without worrying about who else He had died for. That seemed like His business and none of mine.

The other 4 points I came to on my own and only later learned already had a name (Calvinism/TU*IP).
Thanks for the explanation. :)
 
I voted that I lean toward Calvinism, but since Calvin didn't have a patent on the doctrines of grace and election and predestination, I have never quoted him. Ever. I would rather quote scripture directly.

To keep it very, very simple, there are a couple verses with rhetorical questions that settle all dispute for me on the subject.

"For who maketh the to differ from another? and what hast though that thou didst not receive? Now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?" (1 Cor. 4:7).

"Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25)
 
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