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Acts 2 and Regeneration...

@Bruiser said, Cool. Would you say Preparatory Grace is; Prevenient?


Well it comes before the monergistic act of regeneration. So in that aspect, perhaps. But keep in mind it’s not to cause salvation.
 
Well it comes before the monergistic act of regeneration. So in that aspect, perhaps. But keep in mind it’s not to cause salvation.
So now...

Do you believe Saint Peter's Sermon at Pentecost, in Context, clearly teaches the New Birth before Faith?
 
So now...

Do you believe Saint Peter's Sermon on Pentecost, in Context, clearly teaches the New Birth before Faith?
Let me review it before I answer. Verses?
 
Let me review it before I answer. Verses?
Acts 2, Saint Peter's Sermon. Particularly the Pricking of the heart occuring before they received the Gospel. They were Cut to the heart, and I Conflate this with the Circumcision of the heart; which is Regeneration...
 
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Bruiser said:
I suppose it could support Arminian Prevenient Grace too, but what's wrong with that?

What’s wrong with it is, it teaches man has the final decision.
Which implies that man is the cause of his own salvation.
 
Amen 😃

Not to change the OP but Arminian Prevenient Grace is Irresistible, because of what it accomplishes; it Thwarts Total Depravity against the Will...

Do you think Acts 2 proves Prevenient Regeneration?
That is not what they mean by it, nor how they use it.
 
Acts 16:14 [NASB] A woman named Lydia was listening; [she was] a seller of purple fabrics from the city of Thyatira, [and] a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

I look to Acts 16 and see something of far greater importance than some "Ordo Salutis" minutia. WHEN is less critical than WHO. It was not some blanket of grace empowering all people without exception to choose for themselves with a newly freed will ... it was GOD who actively opened a heart to receive that which would change EVERYTHING.

Now going back to Acts 2 ... MANY saw and heard. Some responded by mocking others had their hearts pierced. 100% were not saved in the end (some believed and some rejected). So GOD pierced the heart of "as many as were appointed to believe", and they believed [just like Lydia].
The WHO is a result of God's will alone. That her heart was opened sovereignly by God to receive the things spoken by Paul, does not imply that was the point of regeneration.

I've noticed in myself over the years, and continually in the mindset of others, the confusion between regeneration and salvation vs fellowship and sanctification. We make like since salvation is such a big deal that sanctification is secondary. We attribute that "moment of submission" as demonstrative of (if not causal to) salvation, when it is entirely a willed attachment of ourselves to Christ —it is overwhelming fellowship, so sweet and right, for which we are created, for which we are built, and for which we will see consummated in Heaven.

Salvation is 'getting there', and that, entirely by Grace, but fellowship is with the ONE who made us for that purpose and showed us that Grace. That we call that 'salvation', to me is revealing of the inroads that Pelagianism and Self-Determinism have made to modern dogma. In Heaven we are already saved. There in Heaven, our 'now' is fellowship, forever.
 
Despite how some use it, should it be used to support Regeneration before Faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Not if it can be taken to support their ordo salutis
 
What if it could also support our Calvinistic Ordo Salutis?
Have at it but be sure you specify, explain, what you mean by it. For years, I used to say that I agreed with "Free Will", but I always explained what I meant by it. (Even then, it still was misunderstood and unnecessary argument ensued. )
 
Have at it but be sure you specify, explain, what you mean by it. For years, I used to say that I agreed with "Free Will", but I always explained what I meant by it. (Even then, it still was misunderstood and unnecessary argument ensued. )
We're told that they were Pricked to the heart. Ellicott's Commentary says the Greek word for Pricked is only used once; it's a Verb. He said the Noun version of the Greek word is used in Romans 11:8. It says, "it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” the Word there means God closed their eyes, heart, etc. The contrast seems to me to be that the Noun means God hardens the heart but the Verb means God opened the heart. I don't think too many people will disagree that their being cut to the heart is Regeneration. It's the Circumcision of the heart; which is Regeneration...

My point in the OP is that the Pricking of the heart is in the middle of Saint Peter's Sermon; but before the people receive the Gospel from Peter. To me, this is Biblical proof Regeneration precedes the Gospel. Our Theology says so, but Provisionists ask, "Where is it in the Bible?"...

There ..
 
We're told that they were Pricked to the heart. Ellicott's Commentary says the Greek word for Pricked is only used once; it's a Verb. He said the Noun version of the Greek word is used in Romans 11:8. It says, "it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” the Word there means God closed their eyes, heart, etc. The contrast seems to me to be that the Noun means God hardens the heart but the Verb means God opened the heart. I don't think too many people will disagree that their being cut to the heart is Regeneration. It's the Circumcision of the heart; which is Regeneration...
I don't know the Greek and Hebrew well enough to comment on them particularly, but in many languages a word deals with categories, whether positive or negative. In fact, in English, it can become hilarious, some of the "short for" statements made, (eg, "Help promote disability". When I bring up this kind of thing I'm met with blank stares —"so what's wrong with that?" The temporary roadsign, "Aggressive Driving Enforcement", makes me think of Police in the Walmart parking lot next; lady pulls in and before she can even shut her door a policeman is all over her case, at high volume forcing her to drive instead of park.)

The language here may be that sort of thing. One needs to read contextually to see whether God is eye-opening or eye-shutting people— pricking their conscience to make them think or deadening it so they increase their own stupor, though using the same categorical action.


I don't see the cutting to the heart as being regeneration, though I admit I could be wrong. I see it as God bringing them to repentance, following already having changed their heart. It need not mention that God had already done that, for the logic of Romans 8 to apply, that nobody at enmity with God can truly repent, nor have faith, nor accept the truth, all of which please God.

This is a demonstration of how far the self-deterministic myth of "salvation" overwrites all notions of "fellowship in Christ". Salvation isn't what involves the emotions (not saying it doesn't produce the emotions, but...). It is the God of Salvation that does. God doesn't just keep some from Hell. They become His People, and His Dwelling Place is with them, and they with Him. It is for that they are created and saved. We become engrossed in living up to his expectations, as though that was the definition of righteousness, when HE is quite literally our righteousness. IN HIM is where fellowship takes us. Sanctification is no less important than Justification. But the whole business is the Gospel.​
 
I don't know the Greek and Hebrew well enough to comment on them particularly, but in many languages a word deals with categories, whether positive or negative. In fact, in English, it can become hilarious, some of the "short for" statements made, (eg, "Help promote disability". When I bring up this kind of thing I'm met with blank stares —"so what's wrong with that?" The temporary roadsign, "Aggressive Driving Enforcement", makes me think of Police in the Walmart parking lot next; lady pulls in and before she can even shut her door a policeman is all over her case, at high volume forcing her to drive instead of park.)

The language here may be that sort of thing. One needs to read contextually to see whether God is eye-opening or eye-shutting people— pricking their conscience to make them think or deadening it so they increase their own stupor, though using the same categorical action.


I don't see the cutting to the heart as being regeneration, though I admit I could be wrong. I see it as God bringing them to repentance, following already having changed their heart. It need not mention that God had already done that, for the logic of Romans 8 to apply, that nobody at enmity with God can truly repent, nor have faith, nor accept the truth, all of which please God.

This is a demonstration of how far the self-deterministic myth of "salvation" overwrites all notions of "fellowship in Christ". Salvation isn't what involves the emotions (not saying it doesn't produce the emotions, but...). It is the God of Salvation that does. God doesn't just keep some from Hell. They become His People, and His Dwelling Place is with them, and they with Him. It is for that they are created and saved. We become engrossed in living up to his expectations, as though that was the definition of righteousness, when HE is quite literally our righteousness. IN HIM is where fellowship takes us. Sanctification is no less important than Justification. But the whole business is the Gospel.​
Well thanks for your time. Would you agree as my Provisionist friend says, those 3,000 people were Regenerated before they were Pricked to the heart?
 
I agree with all of your Post...

Do you agree that in Saint Peter's Pentecostal Sermon, it's Proof Regeneration Prevenes Faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
Yeah, I'm going to ignore the specifics of that wording because it is doctrinal language and the matter is not that complex.


What I will say is God saves, God saves with purpose, the purpose is His purpose and His purpose alone so, therefore, if God regenerates a person, then He will also do all else that is necessary to ensure His work is completed. The idea that regeneration would/could ever occur without also faith ensuing is not just unscriptural, it is nuts. We speak of the ordo salutis but that is a human construct. God saves. He does not partly-save. God acts monergistically, not synergistically. At no point is the Creator ever dependent on the creature. He spoke creation into existence and, if He so chose, He could speak you, me, Leighton, Flowers, and everyone else out of existence and so radically out of existence that there'd be no memory of our ever having existed in the first place.

Here's something I recently shared with an inquirer in a PM.

Suppose you and I happen upon an unconscious body lying on a beach. We naturally go up to it and shake the body. We say, "Hey! Hey! Are you alright?" and we check for a pulse (let's say it exists but we cannot find it! 😦), the rise and fall of the chest or an exhale from the mouth or nostrils and, again, there is breath, but it is so meager that were we to not intervene the person laying near death on the beach would die. The body is unresponsive.

The person does not know it

The person does not know they are near death and they do not know or understand they will be gone if we do not intervene.

So, being good people who don't want anyone to die ;), we perform rescue breathing and eventually the body resuscitates. The person awakes. Everyone is happy. We say to the person, "Come with us and we will take you to the hospital and get you checked out."

It is ONLY at that point the previously unconscious person on his/her way to death has a choice.

The person who had become a near-dead corpse lying on the beach had a will. Prior to the loss of consciousness that person had an ability to make choices. They could see and hear and understand but the minute the lost consciousness ALL the faculties of their will, all their volitional agency became irrelevant and useless. You and I could have preached the gospel until our mouth was parched and our breath labored but not a word of it would have any effect on the nearly dead person lying on the beach.

Having invited the now living and breathing resuscitated person to go with us to be cared for further, they have a choice to say "Yes! Help me! Help me all you can! I will do all that you ask. OR they can just as freely say, "No thank you. I appreciate having been brought back to life but can do the rest. I will go to the hospital if and when I have need to do so."

The Arminian/Calvinist or Provisionist/Calvinist or monergism v synergism debate assumes the will of the sinner is relevant, not just salient but the minute the relevance of the will synergism falls apart and monergism alone can remain. This irritates synergists immensely because they cannot prove the sinner's will is relevant. They quote verse after verse but 1) all the verses they quote are people already living within a covenant relationship with God and 2) all the verses they quote are read inferentially, not contextually. They take verses written by Christians to Christians about Christians and try to apply them to the unregenerate non-Christian.

That is not how Bible exegesis works.

Think about the covenants that are mentioned throughout the Bible. Did God as Noah if Noah wanted to be chosen? Did God ask Noah if he wanted to be called? Did God ask Noah if he wanted to build an ark, witness the destruction, or be saved from the flood?

No!

Examine Abraham's experience. Before God chose Abram, did God ask Abram if Abram wanted to be chosen? No, God did not ask Abram anything before choosing Abram. Dod God ask Abram if he wanted to be called? No. Did God ask Abram if he wanted God to initiate any covenant with him? No. Did God command Abraham with any stated report God would allow Abram to disregard the command to leave Ur? No, He did not.

How about Moses? Was Moses asked if he wanted to be chosen? Was Moses asked if he wanted to be called? Was moses asked if he wanted to be commaned? Was moses asked if he wanted to be brought into the existing Abrahamic covenant?


No.



So we see the precedent God established for inclusion in any and all God-initiated covenant is...

God chooses monergistically.
God calls monergistically.
God commands monergistically.
God initiates the covenant monergistically.

And it is only after the one chosen and called into the covenant is provided with any opportunity to make a choice (Noah builds an ark, Abraham perform circumcision, Moses leaves for Egypt, etc.). And most, if not all, cases we have some record of God already at work in these individuals long before they were ever called. Moses was prepared from the moment he was laid afloat in the river. Paul was raised in a Roman/Greek/Jewish family. Jacob was chosen before he was even born!

Yes, they did each have to make a choice but the choices came only after they'd already been brought into the monergistically initiated covenant.

And most of what I just wrote goes way over the head of the average synergist. They are not prepared to hear it, much less understand it....... because their allegiance is first to a soteriology, not scripture.

I was the same way when I was first brought to Jesus like fishermen hauling a net full of fish out of the water.

Ephesians 2:8-10

  • We are saved by grace.
  • We are saved through faith.
  • Having been created in Christ, we are saved for good works that God had planned for us to perform before He saved us.

Nowhere does scripture ever state we are saved by faith. We are justified by faith, not saved by it.
 
No problem. I think it will become a problem when Provisionists make it their Doctrinal Language. The one I'm debating with, is using it to show Regeneration occurs after the Gospel; because death Burial and Resurrection are Preached before they were Cut to the heart...

Thanks all. It's something for y'all to chew on, before they have their Way on it. I'm done; I'll watch the Thread to see how it goes...
 
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Acts 2, Saint Peter's Sermon. Particularly the Pricking of the heart occuring before they received the Gospel. They were Cut to the heart, and I Conflate this with the Circumcision of the heart; which is Regeneration...
Thanks, brother. I have Bible study tonight, but I will try to check it out afterwards. (y)
 
Thanks all. It's something for y'all to chew on, before they have their Way on it. I'm done; I'll watch the Thread to see how it goes...
Lol, when I said I'm done, I found this in Monergism.com...

They are cut to the heart ... the Holy Spirit takes up the word of God to cut deeply (or to circumcise) the heart.

Cut to the Heart | Monergism
 
Lol, when I said I'm done, I found this in Monergism.com...

They are cut to the heart ... the Holy Spirit takes up the word of God to cut deeply (or to circumcise) the heart.

Cut to the Heart | Monergism
In saying, “We are the circumcision,” Paul indicates that genuine believers, regardless of their nationality or ethnicity, have been set apart for God. This designation challenges the Jewish emphasis on physical circumcision as an essential mark of a covenant relationship with God. In Romans 2:28–29, Paul elaborates on this idea, saying, “No one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God” (ESV). True circumcision, then, is of the heart. Better than conforming to an outward ritual is having a heart that has been regenerated by the Holy Spirit (see John 3:3, 5 and Titus 3:5).

What does “we are the circumcision” mean (Philippians 3:3)? | GotQuestions.org
 
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