A Question for the Evolutionist (of any stripe)

[prism]

Where did death come from?

 

[John Bauer]

Where did death come from?

Your question is being posed in the Theology Questions forum, so I am compelled to ask: "What do you mean by death here?" You could mean either biological death or spiritual death. (I am assuming, of course, that you even acknowledge such a distinction.)

[MOD HAT: This thread was in the Theology Questions forum originally but was shortly afterward moved to the Evolution & Intelligent Design forum.]
​

 

[prism]

Your question is being posed in the Theology Questions forum, so I am compelled to ask: "What do you mean by death here?" You could mean either biological death or spiritual death. (I am assuming, of course, that you even acknowledge such a distinction.)

When God told Adam "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shall surely die!"

was He referring to biological or spiritual death?

Since most evolutionists will not acknowledge spiritual death, I go along and say physical death.

 

[John Bauer]

When God told Adam, "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shall surely die!"

Was he referring to biological or spiritual death?

I understand that to be spiritual death. He had enjoyed communion with God, or blessed covenantal participation in divine goodness and favor. By transgressing, Adam rejected divine authority and ruptured the relational bond; that communion was severed, bringing immediate spiritual death. "Spiritual death" denotes this loss of communion. It is the state of alienation from the life of God (Eph. 4:18), this separation from divine fellowship and favor.

To be spiritually dead is (a) to exist under divine wrath instead of divine pleasure, (b) to be incapable of restoring communion by one's own power, and (c) for human faculties to be disordered and corrupted. Adam's spiritual death occurred the moment he sinned because, at that very moment, the covenantal relationship was judicially severed. Spiritual death was the judicial and relational consequence of forfeiting that communion: We are alive physically but dead spiritually.

Here is how I explained my view elsewhere:

There is a famous quote, often attributed to R. C. Sproul but actually reaching back to Augustine of Hippo in the fifth century and his book, The City of God, in which it is said, "We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners."

Our original communion with God was established in the context of a covenant relationship. When our federal head, Adam, broke that covenant, our communion with God was severed. Man was thus spiritually cut off from God and the power by which we were enabled to live righteous lives in the enjoyment of his blessings. We were regarded from that moment as covenant-breakers (i.e., sinners), the sinful condition which produces our actual sins, and in need of being reconciled to God (or saved). That is where the last Adam comes in, Jesus Christ, who represents all those in covenant union with him. Saints are henceforth regarded as covenant-keepers who are reconciled to God and once again enjoy communion with God and the power by which we are enabled to live righteous lives.

 

[makesends]

and (c) for human faculties to be disordered and corrupted

And there may be the reason for physical death. The physical death is impending for all humans as a result —i.e. we are dying; entropy is having its way with our bodies. It is unavoidable even for the redeemed, once corrupted.

 

[prism]

I understand that to be spiritual death. He had enjoyed communion with God, or blessed covenantal participation in divine goodness and favor. By transgressing, Adam rejected divine authority and ruptured the relational bond; that communion was severed, bringing immediate spiritual death. "Spiritual death" denotes this loss of communion. It is the state of alienation from the life of God (Eph. 4:18), this separation from divine fellowship and favor.

To be spiritually dead is (a) to exist under divine wrath instead of divine pleasure, (b) to be incapable of restoring communion by one's own power, and (c) for human faculties to be disordered and corrupted. Adam's spiritual death occurred the moment he sinned because, at that very moment, the covenantal relationship was judicially severed. Spiritual death was the judicial and relational consequence of forfeiting that communion: We are alive physically but dead spiritually.

Here is how I explained my view elsewhere:

There is a famous quote, often attributed to R. C. Sproul but actually reaching back to Augustine of Hippo in the fifth century and his book, The City of God, in which it is said, "We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners."

Our original communion with God was established in the context of a covenant relationship. When our federal head, Adam, broke that covenant, our communion with God was severed. Man was thus spiritually cut off from God and the power by which we were enabled to live righteous lives in the enjoyment of his blessings. We were regarded from that moment as covenant-breakers (i.e., sinners), the sinful condition which produces our actual sins, and in need of being reconciled to God (or saved). That is where the last Adam comes in, Jesus Christ, who represents all those in covenant union with him. Saints are henceforth regarded as covenant-keepers who are reconciled to God and once again enjoy communion with God and the power by which we are enabled to live righteous lives.

Agreed, now I'm wondering why you asked your original question...

I am compelled to ask: "What do you mean by death here?" You could mean either biological death or spiritual death. (I am assuming, of course, that you even acknowledge such a distinction.)

 

[John Bauer]

Agreed, now I'm wondering why you asked your original question...

Because the answer differs for each, so it matters which one is the subject.

1. "Where did biological death come from?"

2. "Where did spiritual death come from?"

Very different answers to these.

 

[prism]

Because the answer differs for each, so it matters which one is the subject.

1. "Where did biological death come from?"

2. "Where did spiritual death come from?"

Very different answers to these.

I would think both are from rebellion to God's Word and result in a loss of communion with God.

 

[prism]

(cont)...

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the question to the evolutionist..."Where does death come from?', when they mostly think of death as bodily death (physical death). Maybe your point is that I've posted in the wrong section? If so please feel free to move it to the correct section.

 

[John Bauer]

I'm not sure what all this has to do with the question to the evolutionist—"Where does death come from?"—when they mostly think of death as bodily death (physical death).

It depends on the evolutionist, for they come in theistic and atheistic varieties, as everything does. There are theistic evolutionists who will answer it the way I did—death is physical or spiritual (e.g., Denis R. Alexander)—and there are atheistic evolutionists who will answer it the way you expect—death is only physical (e.g., Jerry A. Coyne).

If the latter is who you're asking, then I doubt you'll get an answer because there does not appear to be any around here.

Maybe your point is that I've posted in the wrong section? If so, please feel free to move it to the correct section.

I have moved this thread to the Evolution & Intelligent Design forum, which is more appropriate.