A Few Thoughts on Psalm 1

[TrevorL]

A Few Thoughts on Psalm 1

This is an impressive Psalm and is an introduction to the Book of Psalms. Two sets of people and two ways are revealed, summed up in the last verse, the way of the ungodly and the way of the righteous. The righteous class are introduced in the first phrase, but it is in the singular: “Blessed is the man”. Ultimately this one man is the Lord Jesus Christ.

At first his qualities are described by what he is not. The Psalmist gives us three poetic parallels, and when these are lined up, each of the three phrases seem to be a progressive decline in the character and position of the ungodly:
Psalm 1:1 (KJV): Blessed is the man
that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
nor standeth in the way of sinners,
nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Thus the Psalmist by this method also introduces to us the ungodly, sinners and the scornful.

And this is contrasted with what the blessed man is:
Psalm 1:2 (KJV): But his delight is in the law of the LORD;
and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Two key words are introduced, “delight” and “meditate”. Both of these qualities are not natural to man, but there needs to be an initial choice or persuasion that this course is worth embracing, then these qualities need to be cultivated and allowed to grow. The whole purpose of the Book of Psalms could be summarised in these two words. This Book of Psalms and the whole counsel of God is designed to develop this “delight” and a mind that “meditates” upon the word.

The ultimate destiny of these two classes of people are clearly depicted. The wicked or ungodly will become like chaff that the wind drives away, while the righteous will become like trees planted by rivers or streams of water bringing forth fruit.

The parallelism of verse 6 is condensed, and the following underlined phrases and words are required to complete the parallelism:
For the LORD knoweth (or regards) the way of the righteous and they shall live:
but God does not give regard to the way of the ungodly and they shall perish

Parallelism is a major feature of the OT Hebrew poetry. An advantage of this unique form is that the meaning of the poetry is not lost when translated into other languages. Modern translations usually show these parallel statements in verse form, while it is obscured in the KJV. The RV/KJV Interlinear Bible shows the KJV in verse form.

It appears that Jeremiah meditated upon this Psalm, and applied it to his own circumstances. He expands this Psalm and gives more detail to the difficult times and trials using the figure of drought:
Jeremiah 17:7-8 (KJV): 7 Blessed is the man that trusteth in the LORD, and whose hope the LORD is. 8 For he shall be as a tree planted by the waters, and that spreadeth out her roots by the river, and shall not see when heat cometh, but her leaf shall be green; and shall not be careful in the year of drought, neither shall cease from yielding fruit.

Jeremiah also gives the contrast as revealed in Psalm 1:
Jeremiah 17:5-6 (KJV): 5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD. 6 For he shall be like the heath in the desert, and shall not see when good cometh; but shall inhabit the parched places in the wilderness, in a salt land and not inhabited.

Jeremiah under Spirit guidance is very searching in his application of Psalm 1. We need to be humbled by the Word of God and the Gospel of Christ and allow the influence of the Word to awaken a delight in the Word and a desire to meditate therein. By this means our hearts and minds will direct us in the Way. Jeremiah adds another searching comment in v9 and Yahweh then speaks directly by means of a summary in v10, giving the final outcome, similar to the outcome of the two ways of Psalm 1:
Jeremiah 17:9-10 (KJV): 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Many of the Psalms are written by David, the man after God’s own heart. They reveal his thoughts, prayers and praises. Some are written by his close associates such as Asaph who became the chief musician. Some are anonymous, and some of these seem to be by Hezekiah. A unique feature of the Psalms is that in some instances they reveal the thoughts of Jesus more than the thoughts and circumstances of David, for example Psalms 8, 16, 22 and 110 that are quoted in the NT and applied specifically to Jesus and his circumstances. Thus the partial revelation of God by the prophets anticipates the complete revelation of God in His Son Hebrews 1:1-2.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josheb]

Well done.

Do you think Jeremiah was intentionally referencing David? Was he doing so to remind his audience of their former kings' heart? His wisdom? Perhaps their former king's own imperfection? His repentance?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Josheb,

Do you think Jeremiah was intentionally referencing David? Was he doing so to remind his audience of their former kings' heart? His wisdom? Perhaps their former king's own imperfection? His repentance?

I consider that Jeremiah very much had Psalm 1 in mind when he spoke and wrote Jeremiah 17. As an introduction to the Psalms he would also have David in mind who was a major contributor to the Psalms and these speak of all aspects of David's life. The same should also remind us of David's life, but we also have the advantage in realising how many of these Psalms are fulfilled in a greater way in the life of Jesus, and many Psalms are quoted and applied to Jesus. For example, I see Psalm 8 as applicable to David's life and specifically to his defeat of Goliath, but the much greater fulfillment is in Christ and the New Creation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josheb]

Greetings Josheb,

I consider that Jeremiah very much had Psalm 1 in mind when he spoke and wrote Jeremiah 17. As an introduction to the Psalms he would also have David in mind who was a major contributor to the Psalms and these speak of all aspects of David's life. The same should also remind us of David's life, but we also have the advantage in realising how many of these Psalms are fulfilled in a greater way in the life of Jesus, and many Psalms are quoted and applied to Jesus.

I'd like to stick to Psalm 1 and the Jeremiah use of that psalm for now.

I agree with you: it is likely Jeremiah (and God) had David very much in mind when Jeremiah spoke to the people of Judah living his day. Do you think the fact God never wanted a human, earthly monarch was something David understood when he wrote Psalm 1? Was God's disdain for the monarchy, the people of Israel's/Judah's disobedience asking for a king, and their eventually reaping all that God said would happen in mind when Jeremiah spoke/wrote using Psalm 1?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,

I'd like to stick to Psalm 1 and the Jeremiah use of that psalm for now. I agree with you: it is likely Jeremiah (and God) had David very much in mind when Jeremiah spoke to the people of Judah living his day.

We tentatively agree here, but I do not see much comment on Jeremiah 17, or Psalm 1 for that matter. I am not sure of what you are trying to suggest.

Do you think the fact God never wanted a human, earthly monarch was something David understood when he wrote Psalm 1?

There is no mention of a monarchy in Psalm 1, but God foresaw the need of a king, and had prophesied that a descendant of Judah would fulfill that role. I question "a human, earthly monarch".
Genesis 49:8–12 (KJV): 8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father’s children shall bow down before thee. 9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: 12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
David was a man after God's heart and his kingdom was given to him by God, replacing the kingdom under Saul. As such the kingdom of God under David foreshadowed the future Kingdom of God on the earth for the 1000 years, under the son of David, the Son of God Psalm 72, 2 Samuel 7:8-17, 23: 23:1-7, Isaiah 55:1-3.

Was God's disdain for the monarchy, the people of Israel's/Judah's disobedience asking for a king, and their eventually reaping all that God said would happen in mind when Jeremiah spoke/wrote using Psalm 1?

Again, I do not see the connection concerning the monarchy. There were many faithful kings after David, for example Jehoshaphat, Hezekiah and in Jeremiah's time Josiah. Despite their occasional failure, these foreshadowed Jesus as King and His Kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Are you the same TrevorL that was on Mountain Retreat years ago? Also, grace centered forum? Whose faith is "Christadelphian"? Must be the same gentleman~We have had a few battles before~maybe more yet to come, pretty sure.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings Red Baker,

Are you the same @TrevorL that was on Mountain Retreat years ago? Also, grace centered forum? Whose faith is "Christadelphian"? Must be the same gentleman~We have had a few battles before~maybe more yet to come, pretty sure.

I am not sure that I recall actually encountering you personally, maybe memory loss as I am 79 y.o. But yes I have maintained my forum name on a reasonably large number of forums over the last 19 years. I tried to access grace centred forum just now, but access is denied or not available. I think I was effectively banned because of my belief that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father. I still have a Tab for Mountain Retreat, and have 41 Posts, the first July 4th 2004 and the last June 24th 2006, which is a long time ago. Maybe I need to reread these and see if there are any other interesting topics.

It was to some extent interesting that I encountered a lot of friction on a forum recently, mainly from one dominant participant, and was finally banned from that forum when I was accused of being a Christadelphian which I had not admitted. I was banned on August 11th and could not see what had happened as they completely blocked my access. It was only last night August 16th that I took another computer to our meeting and using their modem was able to read what had happened. On the very day I was banned on that forum I received an independent invitation to join this forum, not because the person who invited me knew of my being banned or as a Christadelphian. Maybe if they knew I may not have been invited, but I notice this forum seems to tolerate a JW and a SDA. When registering I was asked on the profile as to my denomination, and I added this, not knowing that it would appear in my avatar.

Perhaps as a result I am taking things a bit steadier. I am not sure that I like the word "battle", but perhaps being an Australian with royal convict blood, I prefer a fight than a feed. No, rather I prefer to discuss the Scriptures and because of my beliefs and environment, I have a different perspective on many passages and Bible teachings. Please feel free to discuss some of these topics with me as they occur. I prefer not to discuss every possible subject, and I do not usually defend every Christadelphian belief even though I strongly endorse these, but I have developed a reasonable answer on many topics and I find the interaction on the forums interesting and beneficial.

So, nice to encounter you again, but not sure what your beliefs are and whether we will discuss some of this.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings Trevor.

It was you and I that debated your position on Yahweh~I had nothing to do with you getting banned. I have no problem debating folks with different views than mine, as a matter of fact I had rather to debate other folks understanding difference than mine.

We are close in age, Jim a little older. Others here I do not know.

Grace centred forum is close as far as I know~Mountain Retreat has gone to much Political for my taste~especially so for Democrats.

My beliefs are most likely too much GRACE for your taste~especially so being a Christadelphian.

Red Baker

 

[Josheb]

There is no mention of a monarchy in Psalm 1,

If the psalm was written by David then the monarchy is implict. So too is God's view of the monarchy as stated in 1 Samuel 8. David certainly knew that history. So too did Jeremiah. So too did both David's and Jeremiah's audience and, in terms of the disobedience of Jeremiah's day, the two are directly related. Jeremiah and his audience would have understood that, too (even if his audience dismissed it or further rebelled against it.

but God foresaw the need of a king,

That is absolutely incorrect.

According to God, He was the king of Israel and He took the request for a king like all the other nations to be a rejection of Him. Being rejected and knowing the sinful human heart He informed those who'd rejected Him what would ensue if they were granted an earthly monarch and everything He said happened. David knew that. David knew his own monarchy was not something God wanted. Later, according to Acts 2, David learned the promised thrown had nothing to do with a man-made chair in an earthly city. Jeremiah knew this, too.

and had prophesied that a descendant of Judah would fulfill that role. I question "a human, earthly monarch".

Yes, and Acts 2 tells us that was a promise that the anointed one of God would not see decay but be raised from the dead. The Acts 2 text tells us David understood that. It's doubtful, but possible (I suppose) Jeremiah's audience understood that but the Jewish response to Jesus during his life on earth leads to the exact opposite conclusion: despite the revelation of the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets, they did not have a clue and were willfully not interested in the truth.

Jeremiah knew that wretched rejection was coming.

Genesis 49:8–12 (KJV): 8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father’s children shall bow down before thee. 9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? 10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. 11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes: 12 His eyes shall be red with wine, and his teeth white with milk.
David was a man after God's heart and his kingdom was given to him by God, replacing the kingdom under Saul. As such the kingdom of God under David foreshadowed the future Kingdom of God on the earth for the 1000 years, under the son of David, the Son of God Psalm 72, 2 Samuel 7:8-17, 23: 23:1-7, Isaiah 55:1-3.

Again, I do not see the connection concerning the monarchy. There were many faithful kings after David, for example Jehoshaphat, Hezekiah and in Jeremiah's time Josiah. Despite their occasional failure, these foreshadowed Jesus as King and His Kingdom.

Kind regards
Trevor

Now re-read everything you cited knowing God viewed the earthly monarchy as an act of rebellion, a blatant rejection of Him as King......



....beginning with Psalm 1.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,

Now re-read everything you cited knowing God viewed the earthly monarchy as an act of rebellion, a blatant rejection of Him as King......
....beginning with Psalm 1.

The circumstances surrounding and the motivation in their request for a king was definitely a rejection of God as King, but God gave them Saul, and this led to much difficulty for the nation of Israel in Saul's lifetime. Nevertheless God provided David to replace Saul, and God was with David.

I like the contrast in the following:
Acts 13:21–23 (KJV): 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

To be honest I do not know what you are advocating. Yes, I could begin with Psalm 1, but this does not impress me with what you are claiming or suggesting (which I cannot yet understand what you are suggesting - possibly it is because I am old and slow and stubborn in my beliefs).

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

It was you and I that debated your position on Yahweh~I had nothing to do with you getting banned.

I cannot access the Grace centred forum so I do not know how far we progressed. I was not banned because of my Yahweh thread as they did not delete this. One member raised the subject of the Trinity and I answered once, and then he added about 20 more references in support of the Trinity. I was then moved to a sub forum possibly called "non-conformist" and a few of my threads including the Yahweh Name thread were also moved there, and I could edit them and add new threads. My suspicion is that very few members could actually read my threads and posts. My activity was more or less thwarted. I was not allowed to post in any other sub-forum.

I have many Bible interests and specifically like a number of themes, and I like the Psalms, Isaiah and Galatians. I notice in the Mountain Retreat I mentioned the Servants Songs, and these are very interesting. I also specifically like Psalm 8 and Isaiah 6 and would welcome any discussion on these. The Yahweh Name theme is also one of my important interests. I could detail many of my involvements in this subject, but perhaps three may suffice. I was first introduced to this subject in a formal way at a Young People's Study Weekend in the Southern Highlands below Sydney. This awakened my interest which has continued all my life. It was also the occasion that I started to court Joyce and we were married 4 years later and we have been married 56 years. When I first joined my first forum 19 years ago there was a long running thread on the Yahweh Name, conducted by a UK brother, and his main aim was in support of "I will be" rather than "I AM". I have a copy and there are 143 Posts.

In my fellowship we have much ebb and flow of people and ideas, though we agree on what we call the basics of the Gospel. One of the major expositors from our 8 meetings in our region gave a Bible Class address on the earlier Wednesday Night. It was an excellent talk, except I disagreed with one comment he made on Exodus 3:14 and I also need to do some research on one other comment. Joyce listened to the recording of this class last Wednesday, and last night she mentioned the talk. She stated that our speaker was correct and I was wrong, but we have not yet fully discussed this. Nevertheless I am still convinced of the view that I advocate in my thread. I have decided to add the thread to this forum and there could be some additions and minor alterations to the thread that you discussed previously. I welcome your participation.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josheb]

Greetings again Josheb,

The circumstances surrounding and the motivation in their request for a king was definitely a rejection of God as King...

Which is certainly relevant to Jeremiah and the conditions he was prophetically addressing in his era.

, but

No, there is not "but".

The request for a king was considered by God a rejection of Him as their king and not a single king who ever rules Israel was an adequate replacement for God. Every single one of them was corrupt in one way or another (or many). David was a selfish murderous adulterer who lied to his son about what God said.

That is relevant to Jeremiah and the conditions he was prophetically addressing in his era, especially since he used a psalm by the selfish murderous adulterer who lied about what God said.

God gave them Saul... God provided David to replace Saul...

Neither of whom were blessings to their nation.

God was with David.

Not relevant. God is always with the people with whom He initiates His covenant. He is always with those He chooses and calls for His purpose. God is always with them even when they disobey Him.

Go back and re-read the op.

Daivd often was one of the ungodly council, stood among the sinners, and sat in the seat of the scornful. Even during his more faithful episodes his rule as a king was an offense to God and he knew it. So did Jeremiah.

I like the contrast in the following:
Acts 13:21–23 (KJV): 21 And afterward they desired a king: and God gave unto them Saul the son of Cis, a man of the tribe of Benjamin, by the space of forty years. 22 And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will. 23 Of this man’s seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

Great contrast. David being a man after God's own heart did not keep David from being a selfish murderous adulterer, violating God's commands and the Law, or prevent him from being a man of violence. Both are true. Most importantly, David's being a man after God's own heart is not what saved him from sin. Acts 13 is a wonderful "contrast," but so too is Acts 2:30.

Acts 2:29-32
Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. And so, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him and oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh suffer decay. This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

The guy who wrote Psalm 1 is also the guy who understood God's oath to him was to correct the disobedience of 1 Samuel 8. The guy who wrote Psalm 1 understood the godly council of God Himself was the oath, the promise of a resurrection (not an earthly king like all the other nations'. That was revealed to a man who would soon be a murderous adulterer for a second time, a man after God's own heart.

Meditate on that.

To be honest I do not know what you are advocating.

I am not "advocating" anything.

The title of this thread is "A Few Thoughts On Psalm 1" and I have offered a few thoughts on that psalm. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, I could begin with Psalm 1, but this does not impress me with what you are claiming or suggesting (which I cannot yet understand what you are suggesting - possibly it is because I am old and slow and stubborn in my beliefs).

How can you be impressed if you do not understand? Re-read that sentence as if you were me and try to fathom how that reads. If you mean to say, "I do not understand" then say so. I am happy to clarify and/or explain anything that is not well-said.



Psalm 1 is a great Psalm! Nothing I have posted should in any way be construed to say I think otherwise. The op probably could/should be broken into two parts - one about Psalm 1 and another about the relevance of Psalm 1 in Jeremiah - because there's a lot to be said about both together. But the op is what it is. Psalm1 is a wonderful psalm written by a man who never realized his potential in God, a man who destroyed his own family and the families of others. He was a man Chosen by God with a heart after God's own. He was not chosen by God to destroy families, though, was he? Meditate on that.

I guess if I had a point to make relevant to this op it would be something like an exhortation to consider all that scripture has to say about Psalm 1 when meditating upon that psalm, especially since the other scriptures selected to bear on the psalm is Jeremiah. I'm not trying to besmirch David.

A Few Thoughts on Psalm 1

This is an impressive Psalm and is an introduction to the Book of Psalms.....

Yes, and one of the impressive things about the introductory psalm is that it was written by a selfish, murderous, adulterer who was a man after God's own heart.



.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,
1 Kings 15:5 (KJV): ... David did that which was right in the eyes of the LORD, and turned not aside from any thing that he commanded him all the days of his life, save only in the matter of Uriah the Hittite.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,

As well as the above reference, the character of David and the excellence of his reign became the benchmark to measure the character and reign of the kings that came after him.

For example the following kings are commended:
2 Chronicles 17:3 (KJV): And the LORD was with Jehoshaphat, because he walked in the first ways of his father David, and sought not unto Baalim;

2 Chronicles 29:1–2 (KJV): Hezekiah began to reign when he was five and twenty years old, and he reigned nine and twenty years in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Abijah, the daughter of Zechariah. 2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father had done.

2 Chronicles 34:1–2 (KJV): Josiah was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem one and thirty years. 2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, and walked in the ways of David his father, and declined neither to the right hand, nor to the left.

The following are interesting as they did not come up to the standard of David:
2 Chronicles 25:1–2 (KJV): 1 Amaziah was twenty and five years old when he began to reign, and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. And his mother’s name was Jehoaddan of Jerusalem. 2 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, but not with a perfect heart.

2 Chronicles 26:1–4 (KJV): 1 Then all the people of Judah took Uzziah, who was sixteen years old, and made him king in the room of his father Amaziah. 2 He built Eloth, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers. 3 Sixteen years old was Uzziah when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and two years in Jerusalem. His mother’s name also was Jecoliah of Jerusalem. 4 And he did that which was right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that his father Amaziah did.
2 Chronicles 26:21–23 (KJV): 21 And Uzziah the king was a leper unto the day of his death, and dwelt in a several house, being a leper; for he was cut off from the house of the LORD: and Jotham his son was over the king’s house, judging the people of the land. 22 Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write. 23 So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

And the following were considered as failures:
2 Chronicles 21:5–6 (KJV): 5 Jehoram was thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem. 6 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, like as did the house of Ahab: for he had the daughter of Ahab to wife: and he wrought that which was evil in the eyes of the LORD.

2 Chronicles 28:1 (KJV): Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem: but he did not that which was right in the sight of the LORD, like David his father:

Included in the above are the four kings mentioned by Isaiah as contemporary with his prophetic ministry.
Isaiah 1:1 (KJV): The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.
An understanding of the character and the reigns of these kings help to more fully understand the Prophecy of Isaiah.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josheb]

Greetings again Josheb,

As well as the above reference, the character of David and the excellence of his reign became the benchmark to measure the character and reign of the kings that came after him.

I completely disagree and find the statement irreconcilable with scripture.

And I do not mean that statement to be unnecessarily adversarial.


David was not and is not the "benchmark." His reign was not excellent. Jesus is the benchmark. Jesus' is the only excellent reign! Let's go back to the 1 Samuel 8 text.

1 Samuel 8:4-9
4Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah; 5and they said to him, “Behold, you have grown old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now appoint a king for us to judge us like all the nations.” 6But the thing was displeasing in the sight of Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” And Samuel prayed to the LORD. 7The LORD said to Samuel, “Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them. 8“Like all the deeds which they have done since the day that I brought them up from Egypt even to this day—in that they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. 9“Now then, listen to their voice; however, you shall solemnly warn them and tell them of the procedure of the king who will reign over them.”

God told Samuel in very plain, very clear, completely unqualified words that the Israelites' request was NOT a rejection of Samuel as Judge. God made it very clear to Samuel (and by extension you and me) their request was a blatant rejection of God as their King. The rejected God. The entire earthly monarchy was a blatant rejection of God. It does not matter who was king, the monarchy itself was a wholesale, unqualified rejection of God. God conceded to their requests (He often gives people what they ask for, even when He has told them what He wants for them). After telling Samuel to concede to their requests God clearly articulated what the earthly kings were going to do.

1 Samuel 8:10-19a
10So Samuel spoke all the words of the LORD to the people who had asked of him a king. 11He said, “This will be the procedure of the king who will reign over you: he will take your sons and place them for himself in his chariots and among his horsemen and they will run before his chariots. 12He will appoint for himself commanders of thousands and of fifties, and some to do his plowing and to reap his harvest and to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13He will also take your daughters for perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14He will take the best of your fields and your vineyards and your olive groves and give them to his servants. 15He will take a tenth of your seed and of your vineyards and give to his officers and to his servants. 16He will also take your male servants and your female servants and your best young men and your donkeys and use them for his work. 17He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his servants. 18Then you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.” 19Nevertheless, the people refused to listen....


Every single king did all of those bad things. Including David. In some ways David was the forerunner of all other disobedience and in other ways he was worse than many of his successors. He was not a benchmark for anything.

Jesus is the kingly benchmark, not David.

Go through that list God provided in verses 11 through 18 and consider every item in terms of what Jesus does. Jesus leads from the front, not the rear. He takes our sons and makes them his for the purpose of life, not war. The plowing and reaping he gives them are for a kingdom of eternal life full of His Spirit and moral goodness (righteousness). He doesn't make them military commanders; He makes them royal priests (crowns them with HIS glory). He takes our daughters and makes them royal priestesses, prophetesses, members of his holy nation equal to our sons in ways circumcision could never accomplish. Jesus makes the vineyards and groves bear more fruit for all, not just himself.

The king and lord David called Jesus his Lord and King. David knew he was not the benchmark. Even in the Judaic view of the Messiah as an earthly ruled the Messiah's earthly impeccability made all other rulers pale in comparison.

For example the following kings are commended:

I appreciate the use of scripture, but I do not appreciate the selective use. The most important point of all those texts is the fact the wrongdoing occurred in the sight of God (not David). God, not David, was the measure. God, not David, was the overarching comparison. David was the flawed king to whom all other flawed kings were compared. Why? Because none can compare to God, or His King.

Philippians 2:8-11
8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10so that at the name of Jesus every kneee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

From God's perspective, there is only one King and that King is King of all kings, Lord of all Lords, the name far above all other rule, and the only name by which any can be saved. David is not the benchmark. David understood this (possibly in ways many of us even today do not).

Psalm 110:1 (A psalm of David)
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

Lord David knew the LORD's Lord was Lord David's Lord and LORD. Jeremiah knew it, too. And this is all op-relevant because when we meditate on Psalm 1 we should do so with the knowledge of the newer revelations in mind. When we meditate on this psalm we should approach it with the knowledge of its Messianic meaning and the understanding of its inherent Christological significance. Psalm 1 tells us the blessed man delights in God's law. The New Testament tells us all the law, the psalms, and the prophets testify about Jesus. That would include Psalm 1.

David is not the benchmark. You and I are better kings than David (or at least we ought to be ).

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.


David is made complete in us, the adopted sons and daughters of The Most High King.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,

I completely disagree and find the statement irreconcilable with scripture. And I do not mean that statement to be unnecessarily adversarial.
David was not and is not the "benchmark." His reign was not excellent. Jesus is the benchmark. Jesus' is the only excellent reign! ..... Every single king did all of those bad things. Including David. In some ways David was the forerunner of all other disobedience and in other ways he was worse than many of his successors. He was not a benchmark for anything. Jesus is the kingly benchmark, not David.

I agree that Jesus is THE benchmark, but the Scriptures commend the character of David and the excellence of his reign, and the few kings that are commended after him are considered to follow David's example. I fully endorse 1 Samuel 8 and having a human king had some disadvantages. But I think it is important to understand the transition from the time of the Judges to the reign of David. The Book of Judges and what happened in their time is important, and one summary is that there were numerous cycles of "Sin, Suffering, Supplication and Salvation". We then have the Book of Ruth, then 1 Samuel and the events that led up to Samuel's birth and then as a Judge, and eventually he seems to have initiated the School of the Prophets. Then there was Saul and his eventual failure, and contemporary with this God's selection of David and all that happened to him. The Book of Ruth gives a background to the possible character of David, being a descendant of Ruth, Boaz and Jesse.

I would be interested in your comment on how you assess the following inspired statements, the first possibly written by Samuel. To me these speaks of some aspects of the advantage of a Monarchy and David's reign, rather than the erratic period of the Judges:
Judges 21:25 (KJV): In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Psalm 78:68–72 (KJV): 68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. 69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever. 70 He chose David also his servant, and took him from the sheepfolds: 71 From following the ewes great with young he brought him to feed Jacob his people, and Israel his inheritance. 72 So he fed them according to the integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands.

Psalm 110:1 (A psalm of David)
The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
Lord David knew the LORD's Lord was Lord David's Lord and LORD.

Psalm 110 distinguishes between Yahweh and David's Lord. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection, and now sitting at the right hand of God in God the Father's throne.

And this is all op-relevant because when we meditate on Psalm 1 we should do so with the knowledge of the newer revelations in mind. When we meditate on this psalm we should approach it with the knowledge of its Messianic meaning and the understanding of its inherent Christological significance. Psalm 1 tells us the blessed man delights in God's law. The New Testament tells us all the law, the psalms, and the prophets testify about Jesus. That would include Psalm 1.

Yes, we have the advantage of understanding how that many of the Psalms are fulfilled in Christ in his ministry and yet to be fullfilled when he returns and establishes the future Kingdom of God upon the earth.

David is not the benchmark. You and I are better kings than David (or at least we ought to be ).

Yes, David is not THE benchmark, but I have quoted the relevant verses concerning his character and reign which became a benchmark for the kings after him. I am not a "better king than David". I look back on my life and am very conscious of my many failures and lack of dedication over many years. I consider your claim strange, but I have not assessed your character and other qualities, except some of your comments in this thread.

David is made complete in us, the adopted sons and daughters of The Most High King.

I also find this statement strange. David is made complete in Christ, not us. I consider that we may be equal in status with David, but I consider David a greater example than my personal poor influence on others. I especially commend The Psalms, for example a few that come to memory, Psalms 1, 2, 8, 16, 22, 23, 34, 40, 42, 43, 80, 100, 110, 118, 139 and 145 and if I was to open my Bible and have a quick browse I could add many more. These reflect the thinking, the character, the music, the experiences of David, but they preeminently focus on the greater Son of David, our Lord Jesus Christ.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[3 Resurrections]

@ TrevorL

Please allow me to introduce a different subject in Psalms 1 other than King David's merits or failures. Could I ask you about your thoughts on Psalms 1:4-6? I would like to know if you consider this section to be applicable to the after-life expectations for the souls and bodies of the wicked dead.

Because Psalms 1:4 says that the ungodly are like the "chaff" which the wind blows away, "Therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment..." This seems to indicate that the physical bodies of the wicked dead never stand before God in the judgment, but are left to disintegrate into dust.

Yet we know that Christ once spoke of "the resurrection to damnation" (or judgment - kriseos) for the wicked (John 5:29). So something connected to the wicked is resurrected to stand before God to be judged and then destroyed. My present position as of my current understanding of this subject is that the souls of the wicked - not their physical bodies - are resurrected to stand before God to be judged. However, the fiery stream coming forth from before Him (Daniel 7:10) consumes the souls of the wicked, since they have no vicarious covering of Christ's righteousness to shield them from His utter holiness. The souls of the wicked are never reunited with their bodies, which are left to dissolve into dust.

We are also told that we are to fear Him who is able to fully destroy both body and soul (Matthew 10:28). Both of these things are brought into existence by God at conception, and He is the only one with the power to destroy a soul as well as a body and cause them to utterly perish.

If you have any thoughts either pro or con on this, I would like to read them

 

[Josheb]

Greetings again Josheb,

I agree that Jesus is THE benchmark, but the Scriptures commend the character of David and the excellence of his reign...

It is not that I dispute the comparative use of David in scripture...... among a series of seriously corrupt and depraved monarchs. One of the things I am endeavoring to communicate is balance, or better yet, whole scripture. Every comparison between David and anyone else has multiple contexts, not just one - NOT just his heart and not just his prowess as a warrior-king. His sinfulness is an inescapable and inherent part of every mention of his name in the entirety of scripture. When you or I or anyone else takes a selective approach to anything in scripture we are being prejudiced! Typologically, David is a messianic figure, but he is typologically also a figure representative oof all of us because we are all noble creations of God but also all utterly dead and enslaved by sin apart from Christ.

If there is a specific reason for that bias then the selectivity, the bias, may have value but in this particular thread the selectivity is not warranted, imo. Why not? because any and all meditation on the words of Psalm 1 necessarily include the whole being, character, purpose, and behavior of the author, David. David lost his mentor (Saul) a man he looked up to for a brief period. David lost his best friend, Jonathon, a young man who was no doubt torn between his allegiance to his father and his allegiance to his best friend - a man he knew would usurp his father and remove him from his monarchical inheritance . David lost wives, sons, and daughters to enmity and death. The man after God's own heart was familiar with loss and depravity. He was "a man of blood," and that fact prevented him from being the one to build God's temple (a thoroughly misguided effort on David's part further indicative of his distance from God). He violated God's commands again again and again and rarely does the record of scripture report he repented. When he did repent it usually occurred because someone else forced the issue upon him - his own conscience was broken. He saw a woman, gave no regard to whether or not he was married, nor regard to whether or not she was married, or faithful, and upon learning she was faithfully married, and her husband was a man of integrity who served David faithfully, David willfully abused his power and authority and clandestinely conspired to murder the man so he could rape the woman.

2 Samuel 11:4
David sent messengers and took her, and when she came to him, he lay with her; and when she had purified herself from her uncleanness, she returned to her house.

Do you understand neither she nor her husband were Jewish? She was a Gilonte and her husband was a Hittite. They had left their country, their homes, their culture to join David and the people of God. Do you think she "purified" herself with pagan rituals, or according to the Law of God? Do you understand the comparison implied there in scripture between David and Bathsheba?

I am being selective in the opposite direction as you on purpose. The reason is because the guy who wrote,


Psalm 1:1-6
How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, nor stand in the path of sinners, nor sit in the seat of scoffers! But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and in His law he meditates day and night. He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in its season And its leaf does not wither; and in whatever he does, he prospers. The wicked are not so, but they are like chaff which the wind drives away. Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. For the LORD knows the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish.

...was at times exceedingly wicked. He could not stand before God on his own merits no matter how great they may have been.... compared to all the other corrupt and depraved kings. I am also being intentionally selective because David did not write that psalm magically. Not only did God inspire that psalm, but God used every experience of David's life to teach David the blessings of not walking in the counsel of the ungodly (David spent a large part of his life living among the pagans when he was estranged from Saul and Absalom). ANOTHER reason I am being selective in the opposite direction is because the psalm is messianic. The "streams of water" is a phrase, an idiom, used throughout scripture and only one person can provide streams of living water. That person is Jesus, The Anointed One of God, the only true King, who incomparison to David makes David a wretched man. When David goes to judgment the only reason he can stand (as opposed to kneeling or laying prostrate) is because he'll be covered in the Judge's blood. Otherwise, his wage would be death.

That is the guy who wrote Psalm 1.

Throughout this thread I have repeatedly said, "David knew this," and "Jeremiah knew this," and "Jeremiah's audience probably knew that, too," but when it comes to the soteriological significance of Psalm 1, most of Jeremiah's audience did NOT know what David (or Jeremiah) knew.

Whole scripture.

Not selective scripture.

Meditation informed by the "good" and the "bad" of God's whole revelation to us, nt just selected parts we like. I'll take up the rest of your post separately.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings 3 Resurrections,

Please allow me to introduce a different subject in Psalms 1 other than King David's merits or failures. Could I ask you about your thoughts on Psalms 1:4-6? I would like to know if you consider this section to be applicable to the after-life expectations for the souls and bodies of the wicked dead.

I do not believe in immortal souls, but believe that when we die we return to the dust and apart from the resurrection we would remain in the dust for ever.
Genesis 3:17–19 (KJV): 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Daniel 12:1–3 (KJV): 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Because Psalms 1:4 says that the ungodly are like the "chaff" which the wind blows away, "Therefore, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment..." This seems to indicate that the physical bodies of the wicked dead never stand before God in the judgment, but are left to disintegrate into dust.

I believe that the two groups mentioned in Daniel 12:2 will stand before the Judgement Seat when Christ returns, but the wicked will not "stand" in the sense that they will be rejected. They will eventually die after a period of trouble after their rejection. The idea of chaff is figurative language based upon the threshing of wheat. The wheat will be the righteous, the chaff will be the wicked.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,

His sinfulness is an inescapable and inherent part of every mention of his name in the entirety of scripture. When you or I or anyone else takes a selective approach to anything in scripture we are being prejudiced!

I am still astounded and disappointed by your assessment. To continue to extract this from Psalm 1 and Jeremiah 17 in my estimation is being prejudiced. David was selected by God and the outcome of this choice is that the whole Book of the Psalms is mainly attributed to him. If you want two Psalms on his sin and repentance and acceptance Psalm 51 and Psalm 132 and possibly other Psalms are relevant. Your present assessment seems to me that you almost reject ALL the Psalms.

Do you also reject the Scripture surrounding Abraham because he called Sarah his sister on two occasions?
Do you reject the Book of Proverbs because of some aspects of Solomon's failure?
Do you also reject the Scripture surrounding Hezekiah because he showed the Babylonians his treasure?
Do your reject James and John because they sought through their mother to sit on either side of Jesus in the Kingdom and on one occasion suggested calling for fire to come down and consume the Samaritans?
Do you reject Paul and his writings because he persecuted the faithful?

that fact prevented him from being the one to build God's temple (a thoroughly misguided effort on David's part further indicative of his distance from God).

Another statement that surprises me. David did much to establish true worship in Jerusalem, an indication of how close he was to God.

When I listed a few of the Psalms I thought it would be useful to add some comments to each, but I like especially Psalm 8 the New Creation Psalm, Psalm 34 recording David's advice to the 400 in the cave, Psalm 110 speaking of Jesus' exaltation to the right hand of God after his death and resurrection and his role as the King / Priest after the Order of Melchizedek. These three Psalms are copiously quoted and expounded in the NT. Another remarkable Psalm is Psalm 145, which has been styled the perfect Psalm of Praise. This Psalm reveals the true character of David and could have been written and sung by David towards the end of his life, after the Ark had been brought up to Jerusalem and became the new centre of worship.

Kind regards
Trevor