🚩Seeing "willing and working" throughout the bible is not proof of a Free Will.

[SoteriologyA1]

Ever wonder why some people say they see “free will everywhere in the Bible”?

Here’s why:
It’s not because they actually see free will.
It’s because they’ve rejected the reasons behind the willings and workings the Bible shows.

Let me explain:

When they read about someone choosing rebellion, they don’t see that as the result of being made sinners by one man’s disobedience (Rom. 5:19).
Instead, they see it as just a random choice out of nowhere. No cause. Just “free will.”

When they read about someone repenting, believing, and obeying God, they don’t see that as God working in them both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13) or "by grace" (Eph 2:8-9)
They see it as another random, uncaused moment. Just “free will.”

So for them, everything in Scripture becomes just one person choosing this, another choosing that.
They see the "willing and working" in both directions, but they’ve already denied the why behind it.

They don’t see grace making the difference, so they fill in the gap with:
“Mystery”
“Luck”
“Free will”
“That’s just how it is”
"You have to ask the chooser"

But all of those are just placeholder words and phrases. They don’t explain anything.
They just avoid the fact that they’ve got no reason left to explain why some rebel and some repent.

Now contrast that with the consistent view:

When we see someone rebelling, we see Romans 5:19—they were made sinners by one man's disobedience.
When we see someone repenting, we see Philippians 2:13—God is working in them.

Yes—we see "willing and working" all through Scripture, too. (Read that again)

But we don’t see it "free" from the foundations of "made sinner" or "by grace" that explains the difference.

If you reject the foundation, then all you’re left with is the surface.

And if all you see is natural minded surface-level “willing and working,” then of course you’ll call it “free will”—because there’s nothing else left in your framework to explain it.

 

[CrowCross]

Ever wonder why some people say they see “free will everywhere in the Bible”?

Here’s why:
It’s not because they actually see free will.
It’s because they’ve rejected the reasons behind the willings and workings the Bible shows.

Let me explain:

When they read about someone choosing rebellion, they don’t see that as the result of being made sinners by one man’s disobedience (Rom. 5:19).
Instead, they see it as just a random choice out of nowhere. No cause. Just “free will.”

When they read about someone repenting, believing, and obeying God, they don’t see that as God working in them both to will and to work for His good pleasure (Phil. 2:13) or "by grace" (Eph 2:8-9)
They see it as another random, uncaused moment. Just “free will.”

So for them, everything in Scripture becomes just one person choosing this, another choosing that.
They see the "willing and working" in both directions, but they’ve already denied the why behind it.

They don’t see grace making the difference, so they fill in the gap with:
“Mystery”
“Luck”
“Free will”
“That’s just how it is”
"You have to ask the chooser"

But all of those are just placeholder words and phrases. They don’t explain anything.
They just avoid the fact that they’ve got no reason left to explain why some rebel and some repent.

Now contrast that with the consistent view:

When we see someone rebelling, we see Romans 5:19—they were made sinners by one man's disobedience.
When we see someone repenting, we see Philippians 2:13—God is working in them.

Yes—we see "willing and working" all through Scripture, too. (Read that again)

But we don’t see it "free" from the foundations of "made sinner" or "by grace" that explains the difference.

If you reject the foundation, then all you’re left with is the surface.

And if all you see is natural minded surface-level “willing and working,” then of course you’ll call it “free will”—because there’s nothing else left in your framework to explain it.

Could Jonah not have chosen to go to Nineva?

 

[Josheb]

That's pretty good. I would add the reason they see free will in scripture where none is stated is because they read the verses egocentrically, not theocentrically. They read the Bible from their point of view, as if they were the ones in the event(s) described, seeing it as they imagine they would have seen it were they there. If the exact same verses are read attempting to stand in God's proverbial shoes - the almighty God who caused creation with a specific purpose in mind - and seeing God willing and working and purposing in the verses, then a different understanding results.

 

[Josheb]

Could Jonah not have chosen to go to Nineva?

That is not the right question. Jonah did choose not to go to Ninevah..... for short period of time. The correct question is "Could Jonah have chosen to go to Ninevah without all the subterfuge?"

 

[Eleanor]

That's pretty good. I would add the reason they see free will in scripture where none is stated is because they read the verses egocentrically, not theocentrically. They read the Bible from their point of view, as if they were the ones in the event(s) described, seeing it as they imagine they would have seen it were they there. If the exact same

Psst! . .redundant.

verses are read attempting to stand in God's proverbial shoes - the almighty God who caused creation with a specific purpose in mind - and seeing God willing and working and purposing in the verses, then a different understanding results.

 

[Josheb]

Psst! . .redundant.

pssst.... intentionally done for emphasis

 

[SoteriologyA1]

Could Jonah not have chosen to go to Nineva?

Your question—“Could Jonah not have chosen to go to Nineveh?”—is subtly shifting the conversation from internal spiritual cause to external physical constraint. That kind of question is asking, essentially, “Was there a wall in his way?” or “Was he physically tied up?”—as if the issue is whether he had arms and legs free to move.

But my original post isn’t about external limitations. It’s about the internal why behind the choosing. It’s not whether a person could have walked a different path, but what caused them to want one path over another in the first place.

So let’s bring it back: The error is treating decisions like Jonah’s as if they just popped into existence without cause. That’s the gap the original post highlights. Let’s stay focused on that.

 

[SoteriologyA1]

That's pretty good. I would add the reason they see free will in scripture where none is stated is because they read the verses egocentrically, not theocentrically. They read the Bible from their point of view, as if they were the ones in the event(s) described, seeing it as they imagine they would have seen it were they there. If the exact same verses are read attempting to stand in God's proverbial shoes - the almighty God who caused creation with a specific purpose in mind - and seeing God willing and working and purposing in the verses, then a different understanding results.

Exactly, The lens makes all the difference. When readers center themselves in the narrative, they instinctively assume human autonomy—“What would I have done if I were there?” But that’s importing natural reasoning into a storyline authored by God for His purpose, not ours.

Shift the lens to a theocentric frame—viewing each moment as authored by the God who “works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11)—and suddenly, the verses light up with divine intention. You stop asking “What would I have chosen?” and start seeing why the person in the text did what they did—because God purposed it, whether to harden Pharaoh or open Lydia’s heart.

Thanks for sharpening the point.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I know exactly what I would’ve done if I was Jonah— I would’ve gotten in the boat and started rowing.

So much for “don’t insert yourself into the narrative.” I like boats. I don’t mind rowing. I’m a skilled procrastinator and an even better runaway. That’s who I am in the story — not the hero, but the one who bolts when it gets real.

But God.

That’s the linchpin, isn’t it? But God, as Ephesians puts it. That little phrase turns everything. That’s the only reason I’m not still halfway to Tarshish in my heart. Because when God acts, even a rebel gets turned around.

I’ve stopped waiting for strength from myself. I’m just expecting miracles — because this is what the least and the weakest looks like: someone who needs a whole bucketload of mercy just to stay in place, let alone obey.

I don’t know why anyone pretends they wouldn’t run. Honestly, it’s the most rational response. Who feels ready for that kind of calling? Who really thinks they can bear the weight of delivering God’s words to anyone — much less their enemies?

Kayaks are cheap.
Bass Pro is open.
And rowing feels like the safer option when the alternative is walking into the teeth of God’s judgment message.

What did Jonah think would happen? Who expects that kind of mission to go well? And who among us doesn’t second-guess whether God really spoke — especially when everything inside us wants to rationalize it away?

But then… He sends a storm. Or a fish. Or a still, small word that just won’t let you row in peace.

And we remember: He works in us both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Not ours. His.

 

[Eleanor]

pssst.... intentionally done for emphasis

Psst. . .grammatical flaw.

 

[makesends]

Shift the lens to a theocentric frame—viewing each moment as authored by the God who “works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11)—and suddenly, the verses light up with divine intention. You stop asking “What would I have chosen?” and start seeing why the person in the text did what they did—because God purposed it, whether to harden Pharaoh or open Lydia’s heart.

AMEN! As, it turns out, applies to all of Scripture, all of life, and all fact and reality. It is GOD's work!

Why do we insist on trying to operate on HIS plain? Push him aside —"we can do this!"

 

[Josheb]

Your question—“Could Jonah not have chosen to go to Nineveh?”—is subtly shifting the conversation from internal spiritual cause to external physical constraint. That kind of question is asking, essentially, “Was there a wall in his way?” or “Was he physically tied up?”—as if the issue is whether he had arms and legs free to move.

Or was His will going to serve God's or not. The notion there is only an external constraint, or that the internal workings are irrelevant is a false dichotomy. Jonah was always going to choose what he chose because of who he was, what he did, AND Who God is and what God does. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions.

But my original post isn’t about external limitations.

Then it has left half of the germane information out.

It’s about the internal why behind the choosing.

That never occurs outside of external conditions and all external conditions have their origins in God's will and purpose.

Could Jonah not have chosen to go to Nineva?

That is not the right question. Jonah did choose not to go to Ninevah..... for short period of time. The correct question is "Could Jonah have chosen to go to Ninevah without all the subterfuge?"

It’s not whether a person could have walked a different path,...

And yet that was, in fact, the question that was asked (and then answered).

It’s not whether a person could have walked a different path, but what caused them to want one path over another in the first place.

Yep. One of the things that caused Jonah to want not to go to Ninevah was God's will and purpose. Jonah's will and God's will were not in conflict. Jonah did not understand that at the time. Jonah thought the whole thing was about the people of Ninevah. Many Christians since then have still thought that.

Jonah 4:10-11
You had compassion on the plant, for which you did not work and which you did not cause to grow, which [g]came up overnight and perished overnight. Should I not also have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 people, who do not know the difference between their right hand and their left, as well as many animals?”

Or maybe (instead of having compassion on you) I, God, should have incinerated you, Jonah, on the spot the moment you argued with Me.

When sermons on the book of Jonah are preached how much do they spend on the Ninevites?

So let’s bring it back: The error is treating decisions like Jonah’s as if they just popped into existence without cause.

That is most definitely a mistake.

That’s the gap the original post highlights. Let’s stay focused on that.

Then let me ask you a question directly related to this op: Was Jonah saved from sin?



.

 

[Josheb]

Psst. . .grammatical flaw.

Make up your mind: redundant or grammatical flaw?

Deuteronomy 32:6
Do you thus repay the LORD, O foolish and unwise people?

Are there wise fools, or foolish wise people?


Genesis 1:12-30
....and God saw that it was good............... and God saw that it was good................. and God saw that it was good..................and God saw that it was good.................. God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good.

God makes good stuff.

Deuteronomy 20:1-4
"When you go out to battle against your enemies and see horses and chariots and people more numerous than you, do not be afraid of them; for the LORD your God, who brought you up from the land of Egypt, is with you. When you are approaching the battle, the priest shall come near and speak to the people. He shall say to them, 'Hear, O Israel, you are approaching the battle against your enemies today. Do not be fainthearted. Do not be afraid, or panic, or tremble before them, for the LORD your God is the one who goes with you, to fight for you against your enemies, to save you.'"

Don't be afraid.

Psalm 5:1-2
Give ear to my words, O LORD, Consider my groaning. Heed the sound of my cry for help, my King and my God, For to You I pray.

Are You listening, God?

John 8:19-21
So they were saying to him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither me nor my Father; if you knew me, you would know my Father also." .....Then he said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."

Maybe those Jews didn't understand the first time he spoke. Or maybe Matthew was being unnecessarily redundant since anyone reading the first sentence wouldn't have understood people who do not know Jesus dies in sin . The Bible is filled with examples of repetition, and the redundancy serves a variety of purposes. Please stop playing word police.

Got anything to post on the subject free will?

 

[Josheb]

Exactly, The lens makes all the difference. When readers center themselves in the narrative, they instinctively assume human autonomy—“What would I have done if I were there?” But that’s importing natural reasoning into a storyline authored by God for His purpose, not ours.

Yes, but it could also be more than that. Any Christian making that assumption is also attributing to the unsaved faculties he or she possess in salvation.

Shift the lens to a theocentric frame—viewing each moment as authored by the God who “works all things according to the counsel of His will” (Eph. 1:11)—and suddenly, the verses light up with divine intention. You stop asking “What would I have chosen?” and start seeing why the person in the text did what they did—because God purposed it, whether to harden Pharaoh or open Lydia’s heart.

Thanks for sharpening the point.

Glad to be of service.

Paul told the Philippians "...it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Does this not beg the question "What does He work in the unsaved?"

 

[CrowCross]

That is not the right question. Jonah did choose not to go to Ninevah..... for short period of time. The correct question is "Could Jonah have chosen to go to Ninevah without all the subterfuge?"

It's kinda like God said....you're going.

 

[Josheb]

It's kinda like God said....you're going.

And yet He did not actually say that, did He?

"My dear Jonah, you are going to be the object lesson for this revelation to future generations of My people, not the people of Ninevah."

 

[CrowCross]

Your question—“Could Jonah not have chosen to go to Nineveh?”—is subtly shifting the conversation from internal spiritual cause to external physical constraint. That kind of question is asking, essentially, “Was there a wall in his way?” or “Was he physically tied up?”—as if the issue is whether he had arms and legs free to move.

But my original post isn’t about external limitations. It’s about the internal why behind the choosing. It’s not whether a person could have walked a different path, but what caused them to want one path over another in the first place.

So let’s bring it back: The error is treating decisions like Jonah’s as if they just popped into existence without cause. That’s the gap the original post highlights. Let’s stay focused on that.

Actually Jonah did choose not to go to Nineva. It appears God had other plans.

My thoughts...
Man has free-will when it comes to choosing what color shirt to wear today or what to eat.
When it comes to salvation that's 100% Gods choice.
Sometimes God steps in and providence rules the day.

 

[CrowCross]

And yet He did not actually say that, did He?

"My dear Jonah, you are going to be the object lesson for this revelation to future generations of My people, not the people of Ninevah."

God did make a big ole fish that spit Jonah out on the Nineva beach. I don't think Jonah had a say in it.

 

[Eleanor]

Make up your mind: redundant or grammatical flaw?

It's not either/or, it's both/and.

Got anything to post on the subject free will?

Man is a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). Slaves are not free.

Man's will is not free to choose sinlessness in his life.

 

[Josheb]

nt